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Best brand of permanent marker for toner transfer touchup.

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HerbertMunch

New Member
Hi all,

Does anyone else have trouble with permanent pen coming off during etching?


I have tried two different brands and they both do a rubbish job of protecting copper.

I have tried:
Stabilo write-4-all
and
STAEDTLER lumocolor.



Many thanks,
chris.
 

HerbertMunch

New Member
3v0 said:
A Sharpie works.

The need to touchup a board should be rare.

I wish!

I allways have to.

Im starting to think that maybe I should build an exposure box. Im sick of all the effort required doing toner transfer.
 

3v0

Coop Build Coordinator
Forum Supporter
HerbertMunch said:
I wish!

I allways have to.

Im starting to think that maybe I should build an exposure box. Im sick of all the effort required doing toner transfer.

I have done most every sort of DIY PCB including silkscreen. Have not tried directly printing toner of ink on the board.

Are you interested in trying to improve your results with toner transfer ?
 

picasm

Member
I have tried using STAEDTLER lumocolor permanant ink OHP pens and they worked to some degree, although if the pcb is left long enough in the acid they fail.

I have read that the RED ink number 313 pens were found by someone to be more resistant than the other colours, although I don't have any to try.

The best pen that I had some years ago was a proper etch resist type.
It was comparatively expensive, but was good for doing whole pcb track designs by hand. (it had blue ink)
It looked something like this one:
**broken link removed**
 

Rolf

Member
The Problem is...........

HerbertMunch said:
Hi all,

Does anyone else have trouble with permanent pen coming off during etching?


I have tried two different brands and they both do a rubbish job of protecting copper.

I have tried:
Stabilo write-4-all
and
STAEDTLER lumocolor.



Many thanks,
chris.

Most markers are ink. Paint markers are much better for most applications but they are a little more expensive and they are known to have problems like the tip drying out. But I especially like "Painters" opaque paint markers made by ELMER'S. The tip don't dry out and they are ready to use in an instant and the paint dry fairly fast. A box of five is about $9 at Wal-Mart, make sure that you get the fine tip. Individually they are priced at about $3 each, the color shouldn't matter.
 

Rolf

Member
Toner Transfer Problems........

HerbertMunch said:
I wish!

I allways have to.

Im starting to think that maybe I should build an exposure box. Im sick of all the effort required doing toner transfer.

ALL my problems despaired whey I started using Press-N-Peel! I will be glad to mail you some to try, if you will follow the instruction sheet to the letter.
( Except for the last step, they recommend using steel wool to remove the P-N-P image, I use a petroleum product like paint brush cleaner)
 

HerbertMunch

New Member
thanks for the advice everyone.

3v0 said:
I have done most every sort of DIY PCB including silkscreen. Have not tried directly printing toner of ink on the board.

Are you interested in trying to improve your results with toner transfer ?


from what i understand, the only way to improve the results of the toner transfer is to find the perfect paper, or maybe different toner.

At the moment im using Rapid online catalogue paper, this beats Argos catalogue paper as its A4.

Its all too much effort for my liking. My laser wont allow thin paper to pass without eating it.
This means i end up selotaping the mag paper to a plain A4 sheet.

The effort doesnt stop there either. Then the real pain begins, the ironing:mad:
 

AlainB

Member
Hi,

Concerning the original question, about pen, the best one I ever had was a pen made to write on CD's. I bought it on a dollar store. I can't find it anymore. The advantage was that it was a fine point.

Now I am using a marker called SHarpie Industrial Super Permanent Ink. It is holding fine but it is a marker and the point is around 1mm. If you can find it, I think that it worth it.

Alain
 

3v0

Coop Build Coordinator
Forum Supporter
You can solve all your problems with the right equipment.

HerbertMunch said:
thanks for the advice everyone.

from what i understand, the only way to improve the results of the toner transfer is to find the perfect paper,

Use the right tool/product for the right job. Use transfer paper intended for the job either PulsarPro or P&P Blue.​

or maybe different toner.

Most name brand toners work. I think brother is the execption. Stay away from refills. HP is well trusted.​

At the moment im using Rapid online catalogue paper, this beats Argos catalogue paper as its A4.

Its all too much effort for my liking. My laser wont allow thin paper to pass without eating it.
This means i end up selotaping the mag paper to a plain A4 sheet.

Should not be a problem with the Pulsar paper. You cut a piece a bit larger then the board and tape it to regular printer paper. Top edge only. See Pulsar site for exact info.​

The effort doesnt stop there either. Then the real pain begins, the ironing:mad:

Get a good laminator.​

Neither the paper or laminator is free. The paper is not expensive on a per square inch bases. About maybe 2 or 3 cents sq/in.

GBC seems to make good laminators. You can check to see which unit Pulsar is selling then get one from them or anyplace else you can find it. I got mine at officemax.
**broken link removed**
If you are at all serious about making your own boards it is worth every penny and more.

You can still screw up if you get a mystery printer or laminator. Some work some do not. I picked up my HP1020 for on sale for about $100 new. Not bad since the cartridges are about $60.
 

Boncuk

New Member
Touching up tranparancies

Hi Chris,

the Staedler Lumocolor is the worst choice you could make. It is not even water resistant.

I've used EDDING types 400 and 800. The 400 is for thick traces (0.5 to 0.7mm) and the 800 can be used for fine traces (0.2 to 0.4mm).

They are fully water resistant and also etching resistant. If you use them on the board make sure to scratch off (Scotch Brit or so (don't remember exactly)) the paint first before you remove the photo sensitive layer. Otherwise you'll have double work.

You can also make complete layouts using that kind of pen. A small power supply e.g. is quickly done using it. Before you apply the pen you should clean the copper surface thoroughly and thereafter use methan alcohol for final treatment. It takes care of the paint to stay on the smooth surface.

To check if the preparation was successful just make a small line at a corner. Wait for about one minute and wipe your finger on it. If the paint doesn't wash it's perfect. To remove the "test line" use a scalpel.

Regards

Hans
 

Pommie

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
I will add my voice to those recommending the **broken link removed**. I use it with no problems. I use a Samsung ML1710 and a regular iron. As I said on another thread, make sure you remove burrs from the board or it holds the iron proud of the surface.

Mike.
 

justDIY

Active Member
I like the sharpie ... it's always worked for me, as long as the etchant remains cool. hot etchant ruins the sharpie right quick.

I've soaked boards in HCl so long enough that the press 'n peel starts to dissolve, but the sharpie is tough as nails. when I clean the board, the areas protected by sharper are in noticeably better shape!

I still like photo-lithography for its pristine results, but toner transfer has the advantage of variable size. I don't want to risk cutting a photo board down to make a small smt project, and risk ruining its emulsion, and I haven't had to do any projects lately large enough warrant expending the entire board on.
 

Rolf

Member
Good Point........

Pommie said:
I will add my voice to those recommending the **broken link removed**. I use it with no problems. I use a Samsung ML1710 and a regular iron. As I said on another thread, make sure you remove burrs from the board or it holds the iron proud of the surface.

Mike.

Good point Mike, burnishing the PSB edges is essential for a good transfer, I use a junk $1 steam iron (no water of cause) and put several pages newspaper under the PCB for heat insulation and a sheet of copy paper on top of the PRESS-N-PEEL to make the iron glide easier, it needs to be in constant motion because of the holes and to get the the whole PCB to above the laser-jet fusing temperature. For HP toner that is 200°C (396°F) but I am sure other manufactures toner is in the same general temperature range. So your iron (or laminator) should be set for around 300°C no matter what system you use. Buying a laminator instead of P-N-P sounds like a bad investment to me.
And what is this thing with the dowel, I must have missed that installment, link please.
 

Pommie

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
My press and peel states 275°F - 325°F and so I set my iron to read (non contact thermometer) 150°C and that works fine. Too hot and it smudges terribly.

Mike.
 

Krumlink

New Member
Ive made boards purely with a sharpie! Early days that was.
 

Ambient

New Member
I use a Sharpie "Industrial Super Permanent Ink" marker. I either got it from Jameco or Allelectronics.

On a side note, I tried out heating my HCl/HPO solution by boiling water in a pan, then removing it from the burner and dropping the container of etchant in. It finished in a few minutes. It was much hotter than I have seen recommended, but worked very well.
 

Hero999

Banned
I've never heard of a Sharpie before, it must be an American brand.
 

Pommie

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
Ambient said:
I use a Sharpie "Industrial Super Permanent Ink" marker. I either got it from Jameco or Allelectronics.

On a side note, I tried out heating my HCl/HPO solution by boiling water in a pan, then removing it from the burner and dropping the container of etchant in. It finished in a few minutes. It was much hotter than I have seen recommended, but worked very well.

DO NOT heat HCl on your stove. When it's cold it releases fumes that corrode stainless steel. When it's hot it eats your stove.

Just get Ammonium or Sodium Persulphate.

Mike.
P.S.What is HPO?
 
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