Badly-drawn schematics

[hexreader]

Hexreader!! I have vista, fritzing works fine for me... Have you tried designspark from RS? It's also free (3D capability aswell)

Hey thanks for not giving up on me. Really appreciate you taking the time to help me. Downloading designspark right now.

Will be great to progress from pencil and digital camera for schemetics.

Wonder what the missing dll is for fritzing? A Visual BASIC dll maybe?

 

[john1]

Hi,

I've been using MSpaint for my circuit diagrams since it was called Pbrush.
One reason that i stick with it is because every PC on the planet can display a BMP file.
Straight from the box.

Most of my diagrams are quite small, and when converted to Black and White they dont take
up much more memory than a Jpeg.

I do have some minor problems with the shading when using the latest MSpaint.
For some reason it won't copy and paste, but it seems alright on the older versions.

I would be interested to know if others have the same problem with the shading in B&W.

John

 

[kinarfi]

IMHO, it's the information from a schematic that counts, not so much the form or layout or if the resistors are a box with number in them or uneven squiggle. It's the information conveyed that counts. Nice and neat and pretty some times take a lot of time and causes you to lose track of what you're trying to get info about and the mind works faster than the hands on the schematic. I have had that problem and been chastised for some of my drawings, and if it was made just to convey some info and it was understood, it did it's job and a schematic, like a picture, can worth a thousand words. Neat and tidy can be done later if needed. IMHO.
Mr AL, You said "I too like to use MS Paint for drawing schematics and i have used it for years now. I even went as far as to create my own secondary software to automatically paste circuit symbols to the clipboard which can then be easily pasted into MS Paint and placed where needed in the drawing. For example, clicking "Resistors, small", puts four different graphics of resistors onto the clipboard which can then be easily pasted into MS Paint." Is that something you can share?
Kinarfi

 

[carbonzit]

I've been using MSpaint for my circuit diagrams since it was called Pbrush.
One reason that i stick with it is because every PC on the planet can display a BMP file.
Straight from the box.

Sorry to say it, but get real: Micro$oft Paint is a deficient, fairly brain-damaged tool to be using at this late stage of the game.

Meaning that there are such better programs available that there's no excuse to use this "default" picture editor.

So far as formats native to the PC go, JPG and GIF are also just as universally-recognized as BMP. Moreso, really: most people wouldn't know what to do with a BMP, but all web browsers out there happily display GIF, JPG and PNG graphics.

Most of my diagrams are quite small, and when converted to Black and White they dont take
up much more memory than a Jpeg.

With Paint Shop Pro, I can create a compressed 16-color GIF that will be at least 10 times smaller than any JPG (16 million colors). Can you do this with Paint? Maybe, but I've never been able to figure out how. PSP makes it simple.

I do have some minor problems with the shading when using the latest MSpaint.
For some reason it won't copy and paste, but it seems alright on the older versions.

Just for the sake of comparison, with Microsoft Paint, can you

1. Copy and paste images with transparent backgrounds? (very handy for pasting in bits and pieces in a drawing where you don't want to disturb existing elements)
2. Handle background transparency at all?
3. Easily resize/resample a picture (and do it in units of pixels as well as percentage)?
4. Easily convert numbers of colors (up or down)?
5. Edit GIF palettes? (Very useful for getting rid of various dithering artifacts, etc.)

I'm pretty sure the answer is "no" to all of these.

 

[kinarfi]

Tried Fritzing, kept get "can't start MSVCP100.dll missing"
windows7

 

[carbonzit]

IMHO, it's the information from a schematic that counts, not so much the form or layout or if the resistors are a box with number in them or uneven squiggle. It's the information conveyed that counts.

Kinarfi, I have to say I disagree with you here.

It does make a difference how a schematic is drawn, and not just that it's rendered accurately. The thing is, we humanoids tend to recognize certain patterns, and this applies to circuit diagrams as well.

Take a look at this badly-drawn schematic from another topic on this forum. I say "badly-drawn" not because it's inaccurate, but because it totally flouts common sense and convention because it's upside-down. (Why anyone would draw a schematic that way is beyond me.) So anyone looking at it to figure out how it works has to puzzle its topology out, and mentally turn it rightside-up. Oh, yeah, that's just a common-emitter amplifier!

So it's one thing if you're just giving someone a schematic as a recipe for how to build something: I suppose in that case maybe it doesn't matter if it's not pretty and follows convention. But if you're trying to convey more than that, then there's a definite benefit to paying attention to the graphic presentation of the circuit.

 

[Mike_2545]

Sorry to say it, but get real: Micro$oft Paint is a deficient, fairly brain-damaged tool to be using at this late stage of the game.

Ummm....do you know something we don't? Like when this "game" started...or when it will end?? You seem to be saying that this "game" will be over soon, so dont waste your time with that.

 

[carbonzit]

Sorry to say it, but get real: Micro$oft Paint is a deficient, fairly brain-damaged tool to be using at this late stage of the game.

Ummm....do you know something we don't? Like when this "game" started...or when it will end?? You seem to be saying that this "game" will be over soon, so dont waste your time with that.

Nope. It's just a way of saying "it's pretty late in the day (metaphorically speaking) since the inception of the personal computer and decent graphic image-editing software". Is that better?

 

[Mikebits]

**broken link removed** is free and a real easy to learn tool for making schematics. If someone is seeking help, and can't be bothered with making a readable schematic, then why should I bother to try and decrypt a mess of poorly placed pixels?

If there is any interest I might make a ExpressSCH tutorial, like my Eagle tutorial.

 

[canadaelk]

kinarfi: there are instructions on the site about missing dll files! E

 

[Grossel]

Inkscape (again)

With Paint Shop Pro, I can create a compressed 16-color GIF that will be at least 10 times smaller than any JPG (16 million colors). Can you do this with Paint? Maybe, but I've never been able to figure out how. PSP makes it simple.

Sounds like a salesman for psp in my ears.

Just for the sake of comparison, with Microsoft Paint, can you

1. Copy and paste images with transparent backgrounds? (very handy for pasting in bits and pieces in a drawing where you don't want to disturb existing elements)
2. Handle background transparency at all?
3. Easily resize/resample a picture (and do it in units of pixels as well as percentage)?
4. Easily convert numbers of colors (up or down)?
5. Edit GIF palettes? (Very useful for getting rid of various dithering artifacts, etc.)

I'm pretty sure the answer is "no" to all of these.

I don't use MS paint, but rather Inkscape. I'll happily answer for that questions regarding the use of Inkscape.

1. Transparent is the default background "color"
2. Yes. And of course multiple layers where each layer can be locked. Also single objects can be locked, grouped and cloned.
3. Very easy to resize. You can easilly choose wheter to change stroke width (line thickness) or not when resizing
4. Doesn't make sense, because you need full set of color (included alpha) to preserve smootnes of lines with odd thickness or curved lines.
5. Doesn't support GIF. Bitmap files is exported as PNG wich is much better in my opinion.

Don't bother asking wheter I try sell that program, its free anyway

I've done som testing regarding file size for any schematic drawing. The software I found makes the smallest png is fsiv (compared to other freeware programs).

 

[john1]

The paint program uses 343 kilobytes, PSP uses 8.5 megabytes.
There are always better programs.
Yes, BMPs can be compressed, like most files.

Just for comparison ...

1. Copy and paste images with transparent backgrounds?
(very handy for pasting in bits and pieces in a drawing where you don't want to disturb existing elements)

yes.

2. Handle background transparency at all?

yes.

3. Easily resize/resample a picture (and do it in units of pixels as well as percentage)?

Yes, it will easily resize, but only a small range of set sizes.
I dont know what resample is.

4. Easily convert numbers of colors (up or down)?

yes, full range of colours each from o to 255, and hue, sat, and lum,
but i dont know what hue, sat, and lum are, ive never used them.
Pick numbers or use a slider with a colour display box to choose a colour that looks right,
thats the way i usually do it if i need a colour extra to the ready choice.

5. Edit GIF palettes? (Very useful for getting rid of various dithering artifacts, etc.)

No.
Thats not really what its for. I dont think it was for graphical image editing, just drawing stuff.
I think bitmaps were out quite a while before GIFs, but the newer versions will 'save as'
in many formats including GIFs JPGs TIF and PNG.

I also have PhotoShop and PaintShopPro, they are of course much more versatile and
sophisticated than Paint.

But the controls on 'Paint' are so basic and easy to use, almost childish really,
that when you're just drawing lines and capacitors, with components and text i find it
quick and easy.
Not everyone has fancy software, but everyone with a PC can view a Bmp.file
and more importantly draw one.

I sometimes use Solitaire and Paint to help get people used to handling PCs, they soon
gravitate into their own areas. Most PCs come with Solitaire, or some similar game.

Side note,
That circuit which looked upside down.
It looks like the ground is plus, so its just drawn like that.
It is odd that the battery is in the middle of the circuit,
but it might look odder with the ground at the top,
and the supply rail along the bottom.

In the early days of transistors with PNPs, lots of circuits had the neg along the top.
Dont see that much now though.

John : )

 

[carbonzit]

The paint program uses 343 kilobytes, PSP uses 8.5 megabytes.

So what? Are you still using an IBM XT with floppy drives?

Yes, BMPs can be compressed, like most files.

Yes, but does Paint handle compressed BMPs? Can it write them?

3. Easily resize/resample a picture (and do it in units of pixels as well as percentage)?
Yes, it will easily resize, but only a small range of set sizes.

PSP will resize to any arbitrary size. Who wants to be limited to multiples of powers of 2, or whatever Paint forces you to use?

4. Easily convert numbers of colors (up or down)?
yes, full range of colours each from o to 255, and hue, sat, and lum,
but i dont know what hue, sat, and lum are, ive never used them.
Pick numbers or use a slider with a colour display box to choose a colour that looks right,
thats the way i usually do it if i need a colour extra to the ready choice.

I think you misunderstood; PSP allows you to change the total number of colors for the image file (2, 16, 256, 32K, 64K, etc.). I find this function extremely important. For instance, a lot of GIFs I find are 256 colors. Totally needlessly; sometimes they're actually only two colors (black and white), more often can be easily reduced to 16-color grayscale. Makes files a lot smaller. Now, I'm not using an IBM XT with floppy drives, but I like to have mercy on people I email image files to, and to people who pay for online storage for sites such as this one. (In other words, have mercy on ETO and make your pictures smaller!)

That circuit which looked upside down.
It looks like the ground is plus, so its just drawn like that.
It is odd that the battery is in the middle of the circuit,
but it might look odder with the ground at the top,
and the supply rail along the bottom.

In the early days of transistors with PNPs, lots of circuits had the neg along the top.
Dont see that much now though.

Actually, I still see a lot of "upside-down" PNPs, Very convenient way of drawing circuits like complementary-symmetry and such.

 

[ericgibbs]

**broken link removed** is free and a real easy to learn tool for making schematics. If someone is seeking help, and can't be bothered with making a readable schematic, then why should I bother to try and decrypt a mess of poorly placed pixels?

If there is any interest I might make a ExpressSCH tutorial, like my Eagle tutorial.

hi Mike,
An Expresssch tutorial would be helpful to anyone wanting to learn a simple way of creating circuit drawings.

The finished drawing can be exported as a bmp or metafile, I use Screen Hunter [free] to copy he drawing or a section of the drawing as a gif file. Its also possible to use Windows to grab a window.

I have seen unreadable drawings produced by most schematic drawing programs, IMHO its not the drawing program being used to create a schematic, its the lack of experience in the person using the program on how to layout the circuit in a logical sequence.

Perhaps if you do produce a tutorial, you could add guidance on how to create a schematic that can be easily followed by others.

 

[MrAl]

Sorry to say it, but get real: Micro$oft Paint is a deficient, fairly brain-damaged tool to be using at this late stage of the game.

Meaning that there are such better programs available that there's no excuse to use this "default" picture editor.

So far as formats native to the PC go, JPG and GIF are also just as universally-recognized as BMP. Moreso, really: most people wouldn't know what to do with a BMP, but all web browsers out there happily display GIF, JPG and PNG graphics.



With Paint Shop Pro, I can create a compressed 16-color GIF that will be at least 10 times smaller than any JPG (16 million colors). Can you do this with Paint? Maybe, but I've never been able to figure out how. PSP makes it simple.



Just for the sake of comparison, with Microsoft Paint, can you

1. Copy and paste images with transparent backgrounds? (very handy for pasting in bits and pieces in a drawing where you don't want to disturb existing elements)
2. Handle background transparency at all?
3. Easily resize/resample a picture (and do it in units of pixels as well as percentage)?
4. Easily convert numbers of colors (up or down)?
5. Edit GIF palettes? (Very useful for getting rid of various dithering artifacts, etc.)

I'm pretty sure the answer is "no" to all of these.

Hi,

Yes MS Paint cant do everything, but it still does some things and the things it does do some people still like. It works pretty well for simple line drawings like schematics.

I also use Ascii art for some of my notes because that way i dont have to mix graphics with the text, i can make it all text and that means i can copy and paste algebraic formulas in text format which i cant do with a graphic.

The main thing is to convey the idea via the schematic, which even this simple ascii art can do:

Vin o---R1---+---C1---+---o Vout
             |        |
             R2       L1
             |        |
GND o--------+--------+---o GND

 

[ericgibbs]

hi Al,
I must admit when I see a circuit 'drawn' using ascii art, I just ignore it.
There are many programs that an author can use where he/she can insert decent quality images into text documents.

Eric

 

[Grossel]

hi Al,
I must admit when I see a circuit 'drawn' using ascii art, I just ignore it.
There are many programs that an author can use where he/she can insert decent quality images into text documents.

Eric

Personally, I'm not completely agreed. If it's a very simple schematic like the one MrAl made, it's not a big deal. For more complex schematics I would agree that it's improper.


[edit]
I've drawn the same simple schematic in two versions. One is drawed in MSpaint and the other one is drawed up with Inkscape. Can you guess what is what without looking at the file names?