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Advice required.

Thread starter #1
Hi guys, sorry but I’m not electronic minded however I am seeking advice on a project.
I’m looking to design a small lightweight device capable of being installed into a gun or rifle but/stock that deactivates a solenoid to prevent firing unless the transmitter /receiver are pointed in the forward direction. “Not a laser target finder”
The concept is for a gun to be in a reactive state unless pointed up range. Has anyone any ideas if this can be built?
TIA Doris
 

eTech

Active Member
#2
Hi

There's probably some legal issues with such a device.
Since its a weapon, considerable effort would have to be done on failure mode analysis to ensure the device is "failsafe".

eT
 

shortbus=

Well-Known Member
#4
I don't understand how the weapon will know what or where a suitable target is? As a long long time gun owner, that function is usually between the gun holders ears or should be.
 

dknguyen

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
#5
I don't understand how the weapon will know what or where a suitable target is? As a long long time gun owner, that function is usually between the gun holders ears or should be.
presumably from a beacon down range. But seems like it might invite some sloppy handling.
 

Inquisitive

Super Moderator
#7
Would be interesting to see the negotiations between warring factions. Okay who will be wearing the receiver in this skirmish and who will use the transmitters?

Think this is best left to proper gun handling by a human. Automation is a wonderful thing but it has no future in this instance. Imho
 

dknguyen

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
#8
Would be interesting to see the negotiations between warring factions. Okay who will be wearing the receiver in this skirmish and who will use the transmitters?

Think this is best left to proper gun handling by a human. Automation is a wonderful thing but it has no future in this instance. Imho
 

JimB

Super Moderator
Most Helpful Member
#9
Thinking about this for a few minutes leads me to believe that this is not a simple task to achieve a reliable system.

Using a beacon in the target area is an obvious method to use, but...
Using radio it would be very difficult to obtain sufficient directivity in the receiving antenna at the gun.

Using acoustics, ie ultrasonics, there could be good directivity at the gun, but at the encumbrance of a large (long) microphone such as a "rifle microphone" or "shotgun microphone".
Look here:
https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-how-do-shotgun-mics-work
A big problem with this would be overcoming false responses due to reflections from nearby objects.

It would also be possible to use infra-red (IR) light at the target, but the same problems would occur as with the ultrasonic method.
ie a large IR detector mounted on the rifle, and reflections of the IR beam from nearby objects would create false responses.

It may be possible to develop a system to overcome these difficulties, but it will not be cheap or simple.

JimB
 

unclejed613

Well-Known Member
#10
Hi guys, sorry but I’m not electronic minded however I am seeking advice on a project.
I’m looking to design a small lightweight device capable of being installed into a gun or rifle but/stock that deactivates a solenoid to prevent firing unless the transmitter /receiver are pointed in the forward direction. “Not a laser target finder”
The concept is for a gun to be in a reactive state unless pointed up range. Has anyone any ideas if this can be built?
TIA Doris
from your description, it's a range safety device? a) there's no substitute for proper training b) would you trust your life to a device that is far more likely to fail than the firearm it's attached to?
 

AnalogKid

Well-Known Member
#11
It sounds like what you want is a transmitter somewhere downrange, and a direction-finding receiver built into the stock of the gun. Yes/no?

If this is correct, one issue is that small, low cost DF receivers "see" the same forwards and backwards. That is, it might know if the gun is inline with the target, but it won't know if the barrel end is toward the target or toward the shooter.

ak
 

unclejed613

Well-Known Member
#12
Thread starter #13
Ok guys laughing over, I’m looking at the design to make a gun safe ie a solenoid activation prevents the trigger action until the gun pistol etc are pointed down range. I could be as simple as a bar code reader scanning a code on the gun, for this the user stands at a barrier and the scanner is forward of the barrier, therefore the activation of the chamber becoming live. The engineeringbive designed its the letsvsay gun safe until beam/ scan is made or broken
Now I’ve had all the smart remarks guys and I’ve had a laugh but can we get out grey matter together on this please before I shoot myself in frustration
 

gophert

Active Member
#15
Ok guys laughing over, I’m looking at the design to make a gun safe ie a solenoid activation prevents the trigger action until the gun pistol etc are pointed down range. I could be as simple as a bar code reader scanning a code on the gun, for this the user stands at a barrier and the scanner is forward of the barrier, therefore the activation of the chamber becoming live. The engineeringbive designed its the letsvsay gun safe until beam/ scan is made or broken
Now I’ve had all the smart remarks guys and I’ve had a laugh but can we get out grey matter together on this please before I shoot myself in frustration
I would use an accelerometer (x, y and z) plus compass. The compass must point down range (what ever angle from magnetic north you calibrate for, plus the gun must be horizontal. All is possible and parts are cheap these days.
https://www.adafruit.com/product/1247

I don't believe "Fail safe" is necessary because it is intended as an "extra layer" of protection and not the only layer. (That is, it is not protecting people playing Russian roulette with the gun and hoping the failsafe works because they are aiming in the wrong direction.

Many of the responses here comply with the mandate of the NRA to avoid all safety features in guns except training and/or hope. I like your thinking that any improvement is an improvement. The airlines industry agrees with you, the chemical industry agrees with you - because they actually implement many similar backup features that are good practices and, when used with good training, make it nearly impossible to have an accident. It seems that the only two industries that don't agree with you are the firearms (NRA) and medical (AMA) industries where life-ending mistakes are almost accepted as "unfortunate accidents".

The improvement in chemical safety, airline safety is incredible - good luck on your goal. Keep up the good work.
 

JimB

Super Moderator
Most Helpful Member
#16
I would use a four axis accelerometer (x, y and z plus compass. The compass must point down range (what ever angle from magnetic north you calibrate for, plus the gun must be horizontal.
Interesting.
That appears to overcome the problems associated with a beacon at the target, but it ties the gun to a particular range unless there is an easy way to re-calibrate it.

JimB
 

gophert

Active Member
#17
Interesting.
That appears to overcome the problems associated with a beacon at the target, but it ties the gun to a particular range unless there is an easy way to re-calibrate it.

JimB
All in software. Once the gun acquires magnetic north, it could be recalibrated with software by pointing it down range and pressing a button. The microcontroller remembers current direction and only allows a shot if within x° of calibrated direction.

A lockout feature could be added if the calibrate button is pressed when the gun is vertical.
 

ronsimpson

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
#18
pointed in the forward direction
I was thinking of the three axis compass. Push calibrate, swing the gun left/right and up/down and release calibrate. This will define where the gun can be pointed.

I am playing with some electronics on a gun. It clips on the barrel.
I see a problem in that there are 1000s of different kinds of guns. I have one with out a safety. I had a shot gun with two triggers. I thought my gun barrel clamp would work on all guns but it does not work on "tub loading" guns or double barrel guns. There are so many different ways guns work. I don"t see a way to disable all. I was thinking about a loud beep when the gun is not on safety and pointing in the wrong direction.

Recently I told a 35 year old "don' point that thing at me" three times. I took my gun back and sent him home. He thought killing monsters on his computer for years made him an expert. It is hard to teach some people not to wave the gun in the air.
 

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