Iontophoresis home-made machine

[TsAmE]

I suffer from a condition known as Hyperhidrosis (excessive sweating of the hands). I am studying Electrical and Computer Engineering, and this condition has really made it hard for me to handle electronic components, since they usually slip out of my hands.

I came across a video (YouTube - Cure Sweaty Hands, Palms, Hyperhidrosis, Hyperhydrosis) which gave me some hope. This video shows how you can make a home-made iontophoresis machine. These machines help prevent sweating with regular usage.

From the video I saw that a 12V battery was used and the only resistance which was used were stainless steel pans and your body as resistance. I am worried that this set up might harm the heart, since it stops beating at a certain current (not sure what value). Would this set up be safe?

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

12V is perfectly safe in that respect - although I'd dubious about any such devices effectiveness (most of these such things are just a scam).

 

[Mikebits]

A number of iontophoresis devices have received 510(k) marketing clearance from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

**broken link removed**

From my reading, some of the FDA approved uses are for post-operative transdermal delivery of pain medication. Another use is for diagnosis of cystic fibrosis. Below is a clip from an article, note the part that mentions induced sweating which seems to be opposite of controlling sweaty palms.

An iontophoresis device is a device that is intended to use a direct current to introduce ions of soluble salts or other drugs into the body and induce sweating for diagnostic or other uses.

Federal Register | Medical Devices; Revision of the Identification of the Iontophoresis Device; Withdrawal


Some noted side effects are skin cracking, blisters and bleeding.

If your considering this device, then I recommend due diligence in investigating and research in the usage and side effects.

 

[TsAmE]

Thanks a lot for the info. Yeah I have been doing a lot of research to make sure I understand everything. I am curious what is the maximum current the heart can withstand without it getting harmed?

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Thanks a lot for the info. Yeah I have been doing a lot of research to make sure I understand everything. I am curious what is the maximum current the heart can withstand without it getting harmed?

There's no set figure - but as I said, with only 12V there's no problem at all - unless you were thinking of stabbing two probes through your chest directly in to your heart?.

 

[killivolt]

There's no set figure - but as I said, with only 12V there's no problem at all - unless you were thinking of stabbing two probes through your chest directly in to your heart?.

Isn't this just electrolysis. Couldn't the series voltage and the body acting as ground be nothing more than that.

If, correct the metal particles can be transferred through to the small capillaries of the skin. If the particles are small enough to breach the blood membrane barrier it would enter into the blood.

The result could be potentially hazardous through long term exposure. (Better safe than sorry)

Edit: I began to think about this further. Particles could become soluble. Sweat contains salt which acts as a dielectric in the metals which would increase chance of absorption once soluble as well as being ionic could increase transport.

Mike, I'm probably way off, if you read this you may give clarity on this. If I'm way off you'll find it.

 

[TsAmE]

There's no set figure - but as I said, with only 12V there's no problem at all - unless you were thinking of stabbing two probes through your chest directly in to your heart?.

I read that when your hands are wet (which would be in this case if submerged into the pans of water) your body resistance is about 1 000 ohms.

Now if this is the case and a 12V battery is used this would give 12mA flowing through the chest (12V / 1 000 ohms).

I also read that around 10mA is the maximum safe current. So I was wondering how 12V would still be perfectly be safe.

Isn't this just electrolysis. Couldn't the series voltage and the body acting as ground be nothing more than that.

If, correct the metal particles can be transferred through to the small capillaries of the skin. If the particles are small enough to breach the blood membrane barrier it would enter into the blood.

The result could be potentially hazardous through long term exposure. (Better safe than sorry)

Edit: I began to think about this further. Particles could become soluble. Sweat contains salt which acts as a dielectric in the metals which would increase chance of absorption once soluble as well as being ionic could increase transport.

Mike, I'm probably way off, if you read this you may give clarity on this. If I'm way off you'll find it.

As long as stainless steel (or any other metal that doesnt react to water) is used, then I dont think any metal particles would be released into the water (i.e. not electrolysis).

 

[killivolt]

I'm not sure their wouldn't. Isn't it the same process to make hydrogen. As long as their is a flow of electrons there will be electrolysis. 12vdc and 2 points of contact through a medium. The human body becomes the medium maybe?

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

I read that when your hands are wet (which would be in this case if submerged into the pans of water) your body resistance is about 1 000 ohms.

Now if this is the case and a 12V battery is used this would give 12mA flowing through the chest (12V / 1 000 ohms).

I also read that around 10mA is the maximum safe current. So I was wondering how 12V would still be perfectly be safe.

You're imagining a lot of untrue events - 1000 ohm hand to hand would be exceptionally low - and even if 12mA could be made to flow in that way (which I doubt) very little of it would be through the heart.

Get a 12V battery and experiment - you struggle to get even a tingle off 12V (don't put it aross your tongue though )

 

[HarveyH42]

You're imagining a lot of untrue events - 1000 ohm hand to hand would be exceptionally low - and even if 12mA could be made to flow in that way (which I doubt) very little of it would be through the heart.

Get a 12V battery and experiment - you struggle to get even a tingle off 12V (don't put it aross your tongue though )

I've brushed up against the positive terminal, while working on a car, and felt considerably more than a 'tingle'. No the car wasn't running at the time. Maybe some cotton gloves to absorb some of the sweat. Also good for keeping your grubbie fingerprints of copper you are about to etch... I'd be skeptical of any miracle you see on YouTube, there are just as many hoaxes and scams on there, as real deals. Look at some of the 'free' energy, and perpetual motion machines, seems so real, but physically impossible...

**broken link removed**

 

[TsAmE]

You're imagining a lot of untrue events - 1000 ohm hand to hand would be exceptionally low - and even if 12mA could be made to flow in that way (which I doubt) very little of it would be through the heart.

Get a 12V battery and experiment - you struggle to get even a tingle off 12V (don't put it aross your tongue though )

Oh ok. Would you happen to know the estimate hand-to-hand resistance? (if both of your hands were in water)

I tried using a multimeter to measure my hand-to-hand resistance and got 0.5 mega ohms (left thumb on red probe and right thumb on black probe). This was when both thumbs were wet.

I've brushed up against the positive terminal, while working on a car, and felt considerably more than a 'tingle'. No the car wasn't running at the time. Maybe some cotton gloves to absorb some of the sweat. Also good for keeping your grubbie fingerprints of copper you are about to etch... I'd be skeptical of any miracle you see on YouTube, there are just as many hoaxes and scams on there, as real deals. Look at some of the 'free' energy, and perpetual motion machines, seems so real, but physically impossible...

**broken link removed**

At first I was sceptical (which is why I am trying to do a lot of research on it). Lots of people commenting on the video reported success and the authors site (**broken link removed**) seems legit.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Oh ok. Would you happen to know the estimate hand-to-hand resistance? (if both of your hands were in water)

I tried using a multimeter to measure my hand-to-hand resistance and got 0.5 mega ohms (left thumb on red probe and right thumb on black probe). This was when both thumbs were wet.

It varies MASSIVELY - depending upon loads of different reasons.

BUt 12V is nowhere near a safety hazard.

 

[TsAmE]

It varies MASSIVELY - depending upon loads of different reasons.

BUt 12V is nowhere near a safety hazard.

Oh ok thanks. I am thinking about trying 18V (as apparently 12V doesnt provide enough current to work for some people). Would this be fine? (also nowhere near safety hazard).

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Oh ok thanks. I am thinking about trying 18V (as apparently 12V doesnt provide enough current to work for some people). Would this be fine? (also nowhere near safety hazard).

I would have said not - but it's a bit disconcerting if it's requiring pumping fairly hefty currents through the body - normally electrical devices for the body are only VERY low current.

 

[Sceadwian]

Harvey, what you felt was touching a 12V lead and GND at the same time probably right next to each other at the surface of the skin. While SKIN resistance can be as low as 1000 ohm's what nigel is saying is that if one hand is connected to +12 and the other is to GND then there's a minimum of 2000ohm's resistance to start from contact resistance as well as every ohm that traveling through the human body adds, which I'm sure is impossible to calculate and problematic to measure properly.

 

[HiTech]

.... as I said, with only 12V there's no problem at all - unless you were thinking of stabbing two probes through your chest directly in to your heart?.

The direct stabbing would likely kill him before any electrical current would have the opportunity to!

 

[bryan1]

Well I have said on this forum before I have had 29 volts DC @ 180 amps go thru my body and lived, as I was so wet with sweat and am a left handed bloke the surgeon couldn't work out at first how the current went. I showed him two fingers that were close to burnt off at the end and for 10 days I had to go to the hospital for ECG tests. The quack did say I was left handed or I was a deadman....

for one to ask current thur their body is askin to be a Darwin Award...............



Cheers Bryan

 

[KMoffett]

bryan,

Curious...How did you determine that 180A passed through your body? That's a a path resistance of only 0.16Ω.

Ken

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

bryan,

Curious...How did you determine that 180A passed through your body? That's a a path resistance of only 0.16Ω.

I would imagine that's just the capability of the source?.

 

[KMoffett]

That would be like saying I had 3 tons on top of me, because I was lying under a car.

Ken