Capacitors - more active than you think

[nsaspook]

All components from the vacuum of space to the great pyramid have properties that can be affected due to changes in the space around them so nothing is totally passive. A mag amp/carbon mic repeater are amp 'circuits'. We are changing the magnetic field transfer coupling ratio in the case of the mag amp with a decoupled signal controlling the hysteresis ('materials effect') or changing microphone resistance (compressing carbon granules 'materials effect') in response to a decoupled moving plunger powered by a voice coil ('electromechanical effect') in the repeater. The carbon mike just by it's self has an effect that can be simulated by a large switch quickly changing the electrical values of a single electrical component across the input port -> output port in a circuit. Thermodynamically there is no electrical device gain as the input/output are still directly coupled electromagnetically and is still passive as we are just controlling how much of the inputs total possible energy is split (with a acoustic to electrical resistance transducer) between components so no matter how much energy is input the output will be equal or less. With an active circuit the input can (in theory) control a infinite amount of output power because the input control port can be (largely) electromagnetically decoupled from the output.

 

[crutschow]

All components from the vacuum of space to the great pyramid have properties that can be affected due to changes in the space around them so nothing is totally passive. A mag amp/carbon mic repeater are amp 'circuits'. We are changing the magnetic field transfer coupling ratio in the case of the mag amp with a decoupled signal controlling the hysteresis ('materials effect') or changing microphone resistance (compressing carbon granules 'materials effect') in response to a decoupled moving plunger powered by a voice coil ('electromechanical effect') in the repeater. The carbon mike just by it's self has an effect that can be simulated by a large switch quickly changing the electrical values of a single electrical component across the input port -> output port in a circuit. Thermodynamically there is no electrical device gain as the input/output are still directly coupled electromagnetically and is still passive as we are just controlling how much of the inputs total possible energy is split (with a acoustic to electrical resistance transducer) between components so no matter how much energy is input the output will be equal or less. With an active circuit the input can (in theory) control a infinite amount of output power because the input control port can be (largely) electromagnetically decoupled from the output.

If you are arguing that a carbon mic is not an amplifier then that is not true. The signal power output of a carbon mic is greater than the acoustic energy being input (which is not true of other common mic types) and that is the definition of an amplifier. I don't know why you say "....we are just controlling how much of the inputs total possible energy is split (with a acoustic to electrical resistance transducer) between components so no matter how much energy is input the output will be equal or less." since that is clearly not the case. Varying a resistance by a control input is what transistor does (that is how the transistor name was derived). No matter what method is used to vary the resistance, the result is the same. You get an increase in the power of the input signal (amplification).

 

[nsaspook]

What I am saying is it's (a carbon mic) not an amplifier in the electrical sense of an electrical signal input resulting in a greater electrical signal output. It is specifically a transducer (An actuator) that converts acoustic energy to motion in mass that controls electrical flow by a mechanical process. We have many types of mechanical devices that control larger forces with small inputs like a water facet (An actuator) on a high pressure water line or a small toggle or bi-metallic mercury temperature switch controlling a large electrical motor.

 

[crutschow]

What I am saying is it's (a carbon mic) not an amplifier in the electrical sense of an electrical signal input resulting in a greater electrical signal output. ..................

Okay. I'm using a more general definition of amplifier as a device that amplifies the energy of a signal, in whatever form that energy takes. But certainly a repeater carbon mic amplifier fits your criteria, since it (viewed as a black box) amplifies a telephone voice electrical signal.

 

[nsaspook]

Okay. I'm using a more general definition of amplifier as a device that amplifies the energy of a signal, in whatever form that energy takes. But certainly a repeater carbon mic amplifier fits your criteria, since it (viewed as a black box) amplifies a telephone voice electrical signal.

Sure, but it's an electromechanical 'amplifier' in the same sense as low power energy sent to a contactor coil causing mechanical motion to open and close high power contacts at a remote location. The electrical input and output energies are electromagnetically decoupled but the process is mechanical internally instead of active electronically.

 

[crutschow]

Sure, but it's an electromechanical 'amplifier' in the same sense as low power energy sent to a contactor coil causing mechanical motion to open and close high power contacts at a remote location. The electrical input and output energies are electromagnetically decoupled but the process is mechanical internally instead of active electronically.

True, if you like making that distinction. But from a black-box point of view (not knowing what's in the box) between the input connections and the output connections it acts as an electrical amplifier

 

[nsaspook]

True, if you like making that distinction. But from a black-box point of view (not knowing what's in the box) between the input connections and the output connections it acts as an electrical amplifier

True, but without some sort of distinction a black box with hamsters turning a generator in response to a led could then also be an electrical (electro-rodent) amplifier.
https://otherpower.com/hamster.html

 

[crutschow]

True, but without some sort of distinction a black box with hamsters turning a generator in response to a led could then also be an electrical (electro-rodent) amplifier.
https://otherpower.com/hamster.html

So we've gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. A block box isn't defined by what's inside (that's why it's a black box). It's defined by its inputs and outputs. Your black box would require different inputs to keep operating (hamster food and water for example) so it's obviously different from the carbon mic repeater black box which only has electrical inputs and outputs.

 

[nsaspook]

So we've gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. A block box isn't defined by what's inside (that's why it's a black box). It's defined by its inputs and outputs. Your black box would require different inputs to keep operating (hamster food and water for example) so it's obviously different from the carbon mic repeater black box which only has electrical inputs and outputs.

Exactly, there has to be a point where we say something is or isn't active in the electronic use of the word.

 

[crutschow]

Exactly, there has to be a point where we say something is or isn't active in the electronic use of the word.

Of course. And a carbon mic repeater meets the standard criteria of being an active electronic amplifier (albeit not a very good one) .

 

[nsaspook]

Of course. And a carbon mic repeater meets the standard criteria of being an active electronic amplifier (albeit not a very good one) .

What's active 'electronically" about it? Even the page that says "incorrectly IMHO"
"a carbon microphone in itself is an amplifier"

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/COMMS/mechamp/mechamp.htm
It's described as an Electro-Mechanical amplifier

 

[crutschow]

What's active 'electronically" about it? Even the page that says "incorrectly IMHO"
"a carbon microphone in itself is an amplifier"

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/COMMS/mechamp/mechamp.htm
It's described as an Electro-Mechanical amplifier

Well, I won't argue semantics. But a carbon mic repeater is certainly an electrical signal amplifier, electronic or not, and a carbon mic does amplify the input sound signal power versus the output electrical signal power (correctly IMHO).

 

[nsaspook]

Well, I won't argue semantics. But a carbon mic repeater is certainly an electrical signal amplifier, electronic or not, and a carbon mic does amplify the input sound signal power versus the output electrical signal power (correctly IMHO).

It's not semantics, used 'as' is not the same as 'is' but we agree on the effect.

 

[crutschow]

It's not semantics, used 'as' is not the same as 'is' but we agree on the effect.

The definition of what constitutes an electronic amplifier certainly involves semantics.

I meant is, not as.