Bye for now and a heart felt thank you for all your help

[tvtech]

hi throb,
The way that works for me is, I just ignore the request and dont post.
E

Hi Eric. How are you today

Ignoring problems does not make them go away. Things need to be solved and solutions found.

All the best,
tvtech

 

[ericgibbs]

hi tvtech,
As its often been repeated on these Forums, that you are under no obligation to post to a thread.

If you feel the need to reply to the type of OP we are describing, why not ask for more information.?
In 99% of cases you will not get a response from the OP.
So paraphrasing your Ignoring problems does not make them go away. Things need to be solved and solutions found.

The solution is 'Ignore' and the problem is solved.

Eric

 

[cowboybob]

hi throb,
The way that works for me is, I just ignore the request and dont post.
E

I'm with eric on this one.

And I'm very sorry to see G11 and LG go.

I have noted that the forum seems to have far fewer beginner electronics queries.

Perhaps it's not reasonable to try to be a forum that can accommodate kindergarten, elementary, high school and higher degree levels of questions, although I don't see why not.

It is a definite turn off when a member (especially a moderator) responds to a post with derision, rather than just stating a proffessional, post pertinent opinion (this has happened to me multiple times, but I'm a big boy and can take it). For a noob it's the kiss of death.

Perhaps we need a new Forum category titled "New to Electronics?", at the TOP, to attract (or direct) introductory questions to a specific area AND warn those members who feel their expertise would be wasted to avoid the temptation to scoff.

Let's not forget that we all started out knowing absolutely nothing about electronics other than our desire to learn about it. Elitism kills curiosity.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[tvtech]

Things are more complicated than that.

A Forum called "Learning Electronics" was started a while ago. All good intentions and so on. I joined the forum. And tried to do the very best I can to attract members.....

Fail. The point I am trying to make is existing, successful forums out there have to adapt and try keep Members.

Without regular helpful knowledgeable members...absolutely nothing happens....

I ask this question: How do Forums actually grow and become popular, renowned and do well?
Answer: Treat Newbies WITH RESPECT. Sure, there are time wasters. But there are some genuine people out there that just want to learn.

Simple example: Fezder. He has his Blogs here. He tears things down and is a proud member of this Forum.

ETO has a good name on the Internet.....Keeping it there is the thing though...

Enough

tvtech

 

[ericgibbs]

hi,
As you may know some technical web sites are blocked by schools and colleges because of the 'dubious' content and their allowed use of bad language.

Its good to know that ETO student access is not blocked by any other organisation.
ETO Administration and Moderation with the help and support of its members intend to keep it that way.

I agree with CowBoyBob's remark.
Let's not forget that we all started out knowing absolutely nothing about electronics other than our desire to learn about it. Elitism kills curiosity.

Its also worth noting that some of our notable scientists were considered time wasters in their early years.

Eric

 

[3v0]

People picking up their marbles and going home is nothing new and IMHO doing so says as much about the person leaving as it does what is upsetting them.

If you don't like what is going on work to change it or show some patients and wait for it to change. Change seems to be the one constant.

 

[tcmtech]

People picking up their marbles and going home is nothing new and IMHO doing so says as much about the person leaving as it does what is upsetting them.

If you don't like what is going on work to change it or show some patients and wait for it to change. Change seems to be the one constant.

Actually having the wherewithal to recognize when the rules are being stacked against you specifically and the game has a bad referee there is nothing dishonorable about picking up your stuff and leaving. If anything it shows enough smarts to know when to quit in a dishonest game and go where you are more welcome.

One senior person leaves the company for X reason it could be just him. 20 senior people leave for X reason it's a management issue.

As far as issue X goes too many people have been waiting for that change around here for more years than I have been here and have since been run off or left due to that change never being addressed by anything less than deletions modifications and weakly based bannings.

 

[3v0]

20 senior people!

People often over react to moderation. Some senior people in particular think they are not subject to the rules because they are senior.

Even senior people are given warning prior to any real moderation action. I lost a good ETO friend when I whispered to him that he was stepping over the disrespect line in chat.

Like I said it is more about the person leaving then ETO or its rules.

 

[Ian Rogers]

I believe that because the topics are going through a bit of a quiet patch, senior members then come overly critical and start becoming angry that the posts are "dead"... This is when moderation is needed as they tend to get abusive and angry at the newbie posters... They really give them a hard time... Since I've been here I've seen respected members blatantly treading over the forum rules, because they are angry!! When I say angry, I mean this place becomes a bit of an addiction... If things aren't going well, its human nature to stir things up a little... Its neither the mods OR the newbies that are at fault... Things will get better for those who are missing the interaction, but making interaction for the wrong reasons, isn't the answer...

I absolutely enjoy helping out here... I hate having to tell senior members to kerb their behaviour... I shouldn't have to!! I feel that the topics have died down, shouting about it will not help... As the newest moderator I believe that the moderation here is nowhere near as terrible as some make out... How do I tell someone "Who should know better" how to behave... "Ooh he's power hungry"... No!! we are not... We only strive for a neat clean forum that EVERYBODY can enjoy..

Apart from that!!! I still love it here... I hope no-one leaves as everyone has an important point of view... We all have our specialities, and so far it has served the forum well...

 

[ghostman11]

I dont want to go into details or try and justify what i have said, i feel no need to. I stand by what i said regarding changes that have taken place. Not all blame can be laid at the door of moderation some of course can but not all. The mix of people here has changed a great deal and that has had just as much affect as any other reason.
On the face of it some long term members that were banned for life deserved it and in many ways this place is all the better for it, but it also means the balance of the membership has changed and the dynamics have altered. Yes things change especially online and forums in particular go through strange cycles. However i do agree a open and frank discussion needs to take place and the air cleared without fear of moderation or bans or anything else, view as a reset if you like. Whatever the reason or cause something isnt right when some very long term well respected members leave or stop posting there has to be a reason for this. Just as an example and not intended as a complete list, look at the recent or lack post counts by such people as Atomsoft, wilksey,Blueroom,RB,Pommie,3V0 and many many others, theese members have/had huge post counts over a good number of years and what ever way you view it people like these are the foundation or corner stone of this kind of forum.
to me this indicates something isnt as it should be, these are not signs of the normal ebb and flow of a forum membership.
As for me i am probably just part of the normal ebb and flow i dont have much time anymore so my posting or not isnt relevant or a indication of a problem, but the lack of posts from some of the others i have named and many i havnt are a good indication that something somewhere isnt right and needs addressing.

just as a side note, i would prefer if Logan dosnt follow me on this and at the very least completes what he has started with regards to an article, i also feel he has much to gain from posting here and this i will encourage him to do. My thoughts and feelings should not affect him

best regards
Jason (semi retired!)

 

[Ian Rogers]

look at the recent or lack post counts by such people as Atomsoft, wilksey,Blueroom,RB,Pommie,3V0 and many many others,

I kinda agree to a point... But some members are pushed to one side.. As I said, I believe my posts and comments would have been covered by someone else before I arrived. I don't like the fact that when posting you are treading where others used to tread... I think members shouldn't fade but also have their voice heard as well... Most of the time all you can respond with is "Yeah! He's right!!" So there seems no point, thus the satisfaction of helping is denied, thus the forum isn't the same...

I would like others to air their comments.... I would like to ask if a conversation / thread can be opened where anyone with over a certain number of posts can view / comment.... Perhaps if I start a conversation and open it to anyone who wants in... Then you can spill your griefs without any concerns of being singled out...

We could use this thread to get the ball rolling.... All I ask is no-one is criticized in the open forum or it will be like trial without jury.....

 

[ghostman11]

in some ways you have kind of hit it on the head, it always seems to go back to the whole must stay completely on topic approach, yes if you answer a technical question with a correct technical answer then yes thread over,done,complete. but what i have been trying to get at and in some ways RB pointed out in his thread, that didnt used to mean others wouldnt post. often you would get someone answer the origanal technical question then someone would chip in with (for example) take a look at this thread i did as it might help, someone else might chime in with a witty comment and that lead to some banter, the point being everyone felt they could add something to the thread even if it was some humor.
again another example of what was past but no longer.... i did a post a longish post once on incubation and Hans (Bonchuk) posted about how it was done in Thailand etc and took the thread down a whole different path, but after what would now be deemed too many way off topic posts in a thread he said something that triggered someone else to post (it was about humidity IIRC) and from there i began to develop a whole new system for my incubators for controlling humidity! a system by the way that is now widely used by a major incubator manufacturer.
so for me i see every post in a thread worth reading because sometimes it uncovers gems. It stops the whole thing you were saying that if so and so has answered then all i can add is an agreement to the answer, it shouldnt be like that, i think the whole on topic thing needs to be looked at and my own personal opinion is that the whole 'BROADLY ON TOPIC' should be widened somewhat and relaxed.
I am not suggesting tolerating bad manners or rudeness, but i see nothing wrong with the way it was when someone would do what we now call hijack a thread and moderation never really seemed to kick in untill the OP had indicated that the poster go do there own thread.
At least that way mods know when a thread is hijacked and the op minds, if the OP dosnt mind then is Hijacking really an issue?.


as for your suggestion on a open post for members with X number of posts under there belt i totaly agree with that, i also strongly agree that personal attacks,mod bashing or picking on any one person isnt called for and certainly wouldnt help. But yes i would a open adult discussion on how things are, and personally i would like to see EM take part as ultimately it is he who must decide if any or what changes are needed but i think it is important in this case that he is seen to be doing it. End of the day it is EM who must decide wether or not to issue updated guidelines or put his endorsement on the current ones.
As for the mods i think they do a good job within the guidelines but i believe the current guidelines ned some adjustment and that would be best done with some input from members.
regards Jason

 

[tvtech]

Yip. Ian is correct.

I say again that Moderation is exceptionally good here. I have stepped into problems lately...but all has been amicably sorted. That is what good Moderation is all about . After all, moderation implies doing things moderately and not bashing people on the head

Yes, now and again I go a wee bit overboard...it's my nature.

Good to know ETO is run like a business...not like just another forum out there. Like most of the others.....

LOL and I feel I really have to say this and shout it to other Forums out there........

The ETO road is a very hard but stable one. Always consistent no matter what happens to others out there. ETO has a foundation built on truth and honesty.

And so it shall stay as long as long as I am part of this wonderful place that has been my home for the last few years...

All the best Guys,
tvtechl

 

[Ian Rogers]

There are several aspects I see to being "Off topic"...

If the OP has absconded ( often happens ) then there cannot really be any need for extending the thread by going on and on...
If the OP specifically wants to keep the thread on track..
If the post is argumentative beyond reason..
If others are purposely derailing the thread...
Abusive posts..

On the other hand I see these not really being "Off topic"
If the question has been answered fully, then I don't see any reason why the thread can't stray, as long as the OP is okay with it...
A little light hearted banter that brings a smile to everyone's face..
Straying from topic if it seems relative to the OP's topic..
Or indeed if the OP himself stray's from topic, after all it his/ her thread...

Sometimes we need to delete posts to keep some kind of decorum.. ie racism and such, but a warning or comment must be made to the poster to explain why!!! We try to do this in all cases... However!! We we are also prone to mistakes just like everyone else.... With the updated software, we were also on a bit of a learning curve, but we'll get there..

Hijacking!!
Do know what I miss!! I can't remember who used to post it.... Yosemite Sam!!!

This was funny!!!

 

[tcmtech]

I would like others to air their comments.... I would like to ask if a conversation / thread can be opened where anyone with over a certain number of posts can view / comment.... Perhaps if I start a conversation and open it to anyone who wants in... Then you can spill your griefs without any concerns of being singled out...

I think that is a great idea but I have doubts that it would fly being that you alone can not guarantee 100% sanctuary to anyone or group who all find a specific issue or sets of issues with certain moderation/moderators actions past or present. In fact I know of people who were perma banned for breaking language and similar rules in the private discussion threads where we are supposed to be able to air our specific complaints just to make sure there was a reason to toss them.

The thing is numerous people, including myself, have tried to get something like a open and fair public discussion to fly in the past only to have it stomped out and tossed in the trash with more MEDs (Mod Edit Deletes) handed out as frivolously as possible to teach the persons/people exactly where they stand in how 'flexible to interpretation' the rules can be here which can be very flexible in the wrong hands. As all longer term members have seen here there are many instances of where someone is given a warning, infraction,short or even long term ban with absolutely no references to any real defined and established rule that comes directly from the official ETO rules section.

What I see is that by giving a general grievances thread such public air it invites way to many people together who may have the exact same complaints which is very bad for people who hold positions of power. I can't count how many times I have had a moderator say 'I am the only one with such and such issue' only to have PM's with other members here and at other forums show highly otherwise.

So what exactly would happen if such a thread was created by you and all of a sudden instead of having a few general complainers show up with a odd number of grievances there ends up being many people but with only a few issues and mostly about a specific person or persons actions that draw the majority of the fire?

(BTW, for the other members who are already there, I signed up to AAC and EDA today as well.)

 

[ghostman11]

I think that is a great idea but I have doubts that it would fly being that you alone can not guarantee 100% sanctuary to anyone or group who all find a specific issue or sets of issues with certain moderation/moderators actions past or present. In fact I know of people who were perma banned for breaking language and similar rules in the private discussion threads where we are supposed to be able to air our specific complaints just to make sure there was a reason to toss them.

The thing is numerous people, including myself, have tried to get something like a open and fair public discussion to fly in the past only to have it stomped out and tossed in the trash with more MEDs (Mod Edit Deletes) handed out as frivolously as possible to teach the persons/people exactly where they stand in how 'flexible to interpretation' the rules can be here which can be very flexible in the wrong hands. As all longer term members have seen here there are many instances of where someone is given a warning, infraction,short or even long term ban with absolutely no references to any real defined and established rule that comes directly from the official ETO rules section.

What I see is that by giving a general grievances thread such public air it invites way to many people together who may have the exact same complaints which is very bad for people who hold positions of power. I can't count how many times I have had a moderator say 'I am the only one with such and such issue' only to have PM's with other members here and at other forums show highly otherwise.

So what exactly would happen if such a thread was created by you and all of a sudden instead of having a few general complainers show up with a odd number of grievances there ends up being many people but with only a few issues and mostly about a specific person or persons actions that draw the majority of the fire?

(BTW, for the other members who are already there, I signed up to AAC and EDA today as well.)

i used to run/own a forum many years ago that was the to aquatic forum on the internet for around 11 years. i folded it a few years ago for a number of reason's. but i am willing to bet that those who were given a perma ban for a seemingly slight breach of rules, had infact been given a large number of warnings and had in general been a substantial cause of problems, the reason they were banned was probably 'the straw that broke the camels back' or to put it bluntly.... they had to go and the first excuse they gave by way of infringement was jumped upon to get rid of some that to be honest had become nothing more than manure stirrers or argumentative for the sake of an argument! in these cases all except one i personally think deserved a perma ban, the one exception i speak of i highly suspect more went on than we know of so probably did deserve the ban.

i have also been deleted purely in my view to keep a thread tidy and i dont think it was necessary, but thats my opinion andthe whole point why we should openly discuss these issues. I really cant believe bans are handed out to put people in there place! that kind of behavior would cause problems between MODS and ADMIN, so in a forum this size i really cant see that happening. I strongly believe as long as you stick to the same kind of behavior you would in say a pub with people then feel free to speak your mind, there isnt a problem with any one person or MOD, there is no need to name people or quote a specific incident, what is needed is a discussion of direction

regards Jason

 

[Ian Rogers]

So what exactly would happen if such a thread was created by you and all of a sudden instead of having a few general complainers show up with a odd number of grievances there ends up being many people but with only a few issues and mostly about a specific person or persons actions that draw the majority of the fire?

It'll certainly work as an eye opener... Moderation is there for everyone's usage... It's there to work for you as well.. Bullying can come from anywhere, to anyone.... Whereas you understand that you can simply choose to ignore someone, others get really riled up inside, thinking on what others have posted...

As moderation is concerned.... If you disagree whole heartedly with a decision, say so!! But not openly on the forum, PM any moderator! Or even EM! If you blurt out your anger on the open forum EVEN IF YOU ARE RIGHT, paints a very bad picture and ( unfortunately ) against the rules!! Real rules, not flexible ones...

I don't see any point in alienating anybody... I see banning as the very last straw, and anything should be able to be sorted before that happens....

I personally have had a couple of near misses with a few members...Sometimes they were right.. sometimes I was right.... I don't hold it against them, in fact I hold each one in high regard...

TCM you are one of the guy's I hate to see go... I watch your posts quite closely, Good information each time..

 

[tcmtech]

I am not going yet.

I think you and most of the more seasoned and mature members here know I try to communicate things as I see them and do my best to find reasonable solutions to issues.

The problem I see too many have had here is that the attempt to communicate a problem too often gets shot down before anything is accomplished which just leaves those like me feeling that much more alienated and distrustful of the moderator team as a whole.

Especially when a person get tossed out with absolutely no honest indication or references to why. Also on that line as others have mentioned thread drift and why can certain people go all over the place in threads all the time and not a word gets done but others will get MED'ed to bits or have posts and whole threads disappear over nothing and even over things relevant to the the thread topic.

What I see and don't like are the unwritten rules here which yes to be fair given that this is apparently our official rule book, as quoted from the Terms and Rules link at the bottom right of the screen leads to, pretty much lets any moderator do as they please to anyone for whatever reason without secondary peer review.

The providers ("we", "us", "our") of the service provided by this web site ("Service") are not responsible for any user-generated content and accounts ("Content"). Content submitted express the views of their author only.

You agree to not use the Service to submit or link to any Content which is defamatory, abusive, hateful, threatening, spam or spam-like, likely to offend, contains adult or objectionable content, contains personal information of others, risks copyright infringement, encourages unlawful activity, or otherwise violates any laws.

All Content you submit or upload may be reviewed by staff members. All Content you submit or upload may be sent to third-party verification services (including, but not limited to, spam prevention services). Do not submit any Content that you consider to be private or confidential.

We reserve the rights to remove or modify any Content submitted for any reason without explanation. Requests for Content to be removed or modified will be undertaken only at our discretion. We reserve the right to take action against any account with the Service at any time.

You are granting us with a non-exclusive, permanent, irrevocable, unlimited license to use, publish, or re-publish your Content in connection with the Service. You retain copyright over the Content.
These terms may be changed at any time without notice.

If you do not agree with these terms, please do not register or use this Service. If you wish to close your account, please contact us.

The problem is the bold parts give loads of leeway for deliberate singling out of members for abuse by a moderator without any possible way of getting a fair hearing on the issue at hand. Basically being that by the highly vague official rules allow moderators to act as Judge Jury and Executioner to do their will and whims fair or otherwise without fair debate or peer review.

That's what rubs so many of us the wrong way. No one can get a open unbiased peer review if they so choose to want one. If they initiate one themselves by starting a open thread to discuss an issue the thread disappears and the the whole matter gets swept under the rug again only to leave them banned in most cases for trying which leads to them and those whom are aware of what they are questioning with that many more reasons to distrust the moderators here.

 

[Ian Rogers]

Basically being that by the highly vague official rules allow moderators to act as Judge Jury and Executioner to do their will and whims fair or otherwise without fair debate or peer review.

These are extremely common clauses in most contracts... I don't think they are acted on as written... The administration of this site set up the "Disputes" forum for exactly the opposite of this... The reasons warnings, banning's and deletions were aired so you have the right of reply. This doesn't come across to me like the rules in bold are being applied with a biased hand....

EM is working on the new software to re-introduce the same. I think its fair enough to let people know why action has been taken. I am more than willing to roll back a decision that I have made if proven it was the wrong decision.. I have done now on several occasions..

Ghostman is correct... We need a re-set!!! New software, new start... Its an excellent site, lets move on!

 

[jpanhalt]

tcmtech

We reserve the rights to remove or modify any Content submitted for any reason without explanation. Requests for Content to be removed or modified will be undertaken only at our discretion. We reserve the right to take action against any account with the Service at any time.

Have you read the TOS for AAC? It is at the bottom of every forum page:

The Administration and Moderating Team reserves the right to edit your posts, threads, and user information in any way they deem necessary. The Moderators will only do such a thing if there is a reason and such reasons will not be questioned. Reposting content that was removed by The Moderators will result in swift action and a ban.

This whole matter impresses me as a tempest in a teapot led by a vocal few whose egos have been bruised. If people are disgruntled, let them speak up or better yet, contact the moderators privately. If someone has data about those who have left or decreased their levels of activity, let them present it. So far, such evidence of a problem has taken the form of a schoolyard argument. I tried to collect some data earlier today for members who are active on both forums and found both forums' search engines woefully inadequate for that purpose. The ETO search may have been confounded further by the data problem last year. There are some members who are and maybe always have been more active on AAC. I checked only a few members who I associate with making mostly technically oriented posts. Crutschow is an example who posts about 2x as much on AAC as he does on ETO, yet the ratio of posts by him for the past 3 months to the past 6 months is the same on both sites. (I wanted to compare one year to the past 3 months, but cannot do that accurately because of the search engines.) Similarly, Mike K8LH(aka MMcLaren on AAC) is more active on AAC, but I saw no trend in his posts. I do not know whether Pommie posts on both forums and could not find any username on AAC that resembled him. Blueroomelectronics had something like 200 posts for the most recent 6 months and 46 posts for 3 months on ETO and 135 and 30 posts on AAC for the same periods, respectively. Again, I don't see any trend there. The only person I checked who showed a big difference was Mr RB (aka The_RB). He stated his reasons previously here.

As for Ian's suggestion for an unrestrained "conversation," I think it is a terrible idea (sorry, Ian).

• First, if members want to do that on their own, I believe the current structure at ETO would allow that to be done.
• Second, involvement of ETO is any sort of official way with what could become a mud bath will lead to misunderstandings. When moderation eventually has its fill of what is going on and shuts it down, it will then have painted a huge target on its back. The hurt feelings will remain.
• Third, mean, angry, irresponsible, and hurtful comments by those who would not normally be so uncivil is facilitated by the shroud of anonymity that many members maintain. I suggest that if the free-for-all conversation takes place, members who participate must provide their given names and city locations. I also suggest that discussion of any individual behind his back not be allowed.

Regards, John