Continue to Site

Welcome to our site!

Electro Tech is an online community (with over 170,000 members) who enjoy talking about and building electronic circuits, projects and gadgets. To participate you need to register. Registration is free. Click here to register now.

  • Welcome to our site! Electro Tech is an online community (with over 170,000 members) who enjoy talking about and building electronic circuits, projects and gadgets. To participate you need to register. Registration is free. Click here to register now.

Understanding Electronics Basics #2

Status
Not open for further replies.
Morning.

Nice comments. Yep, not having basic math skills was a major turn of events and so was that you like pictures. Determining learning style is USUALLY one of the first things I try to ascertain when trying to teach someone something, but I did forget to do that. Initially I was monitoring for correctness. Then the next step is to define the terminology and there is difficulty there too.
 
not having basic math skills was a major turn of events and so was that you like pictures. Determining learning style is USUALLY one of the first things I try to ascertain when trying to teach someone something, Initially I was monitoring for correctness. Then the next step is to define the terminology and there is difficulty there too.

Translated for the outside world, I had a great idea of learning electronics but didn't know anything, literally.lol

Did you see my questions before I went to sim about letter definitions KISS?

End of post #122
 
Last edited:
Post #122 is confusing. I tried to answer what I could.

With the last paragraph, you need to start over.

Z was mentioned somewhere long ago, BUT you have to have the right triangle thing down first before we can go there. Are you ready?
If you are, we also have to introduce Vectors and scalars first as a pre-requisite and I'll do so by deviating from Electronics for a bit.

r^2 somewhere was mentioned as the radius of a circle squared.

I know I mentioned somewhere the parametric equations of a circle and the XY form of a circle. Maybe it's time to revisit that again.

Parametric: x=sin(θ); y=cos(θ) is the parametric form of an equation of a circle

x-y: X^2+y^2 = r^2 is the equation of a circle with radius r.

You have a few things under your belt such as CHA(t), θ, ∏, angles, right triangles, frequency, period, wavelengh, (speed of light),
(phase), Resistance, ohms law, (ohms law for AC circuits), (equations of a sine wave with phase added), ratios, (interpolation), Time constant,
[infinate series], (derivative), (integral), [negative resistance], (exponentiation), (Factoring), (square roots), (cube roots), (nth roots), (db), (logarithms), (-3db point), (understanding of db), (using a scope), (interpolating), (using cursors), (using the SIM), (Radians), (degrees), (sine), (cosine), (tangent), (their inverse functions), [Identities], (what ^means), [using logarithms], (Basic math - solving simple equations), (dimensional analysis), (units), (rounding), (rational numbers), (irrational numbers), (factoring), (unit conversion), (complex numbers)

The things in () I don't think you quite understand or hasn't been covered.
[ ] not covered and will not be covered.

That's a lot of stuff we touched on. CBB, Graham, can you think of others?
 
Cool, a catch up post, I'll go through so you both know where I'm at, great idea KISS **broken link removed**


r^2 somewhere was mentioned as the radius of a circle squared.
I know I mentioned somewhere the parametric equations of a circle and the XY form of a circle. Maybe it's time to revisit that again.
Parametric: x=sin(θ); y=cos(θ) is the parametric form of an equation of a circle
x-y: X^2+y^2 = r^2 is the equation of a circle with radius r.

I have just covered above & now have basic understanding of what you were saying in post #12

Post #122 is confusing. I tried to answer what I could.
With the last paragraph, you need to start over.

it was just the letters K, n, z that I know we have touched on but can't seem to relate them to anything yet, one of my downfalls

Z was mentioned somewhere long ago, BUT you have to have the right triangle thing down first before we can go there. Are you ready?
If you are, we also have to introduce Vectors and scalars first as a pre-requisite and I'll do so by deviating from Electronics for a bit.

shall we do below before delving any deeper, except for stuff you don't want to cover, I'll talk you into that later **broken link removed**

You have a few things under your belt such as CHA(t)
θ, ∏, angles, right triangles, frequency getting formatting right, period, wavelengh, (speed of light),
(phase), Resistance, ohms law,ohms law for AC circuits), (equations of a sine wave with phase added), ratios, (interpolation), Time constant,
[infinate series], (derivative), (integral), [negative resistance], (exponentiation), (Factoring),

(square roots), (cube roots), (nth roots), (db), (logarithms), (-3db point), (understanding of db), (using a scope), (interpolating)

(using cursors), (using the SIM), (Radians), (degrees), (sine), (cosine), (tangent), (their inverse functions), [Identities], (what ^means), [using logarithms], (Basic math - solving simple equations), (dimensional analysis), (units), (rounding), (rational numbers), (irrational numbers), (factoring), (unit conversion), (complex numbers)

ok, instead of multiquoting you a million times, I've colour coded this lot, red has not been covered yet or I don't even have a basic understanding of it or if we have covered it, I'm not relating the name to the subject

bold = we may or may not have covered it but I have a basic understanding, I now need to know more (some of the bold I might know more than I think but worth touching ground on to be sure due to not relating to names of things)

See, for all we have covered, I'm stuck with a blinking great dinosaur called millie who walks backwards & has she does she gets biggerEDIT: pictures will stay with me forever, names may take longer

green = a fairly good understanding but could do with tweaking

any left normal I consider to know fairly well & could refine if needed in the process of getting my hands on some projects

The things in () I don't think you quite understand or hasn't been covered.

as above

[ ] not covered and will not be covered.

you mean your patience has a limit **broken link removed** now you know deep down that you want to tell me **broken link removed**

in the future I have lots of questions as we go, that I shall leave for now about ground loops/radio range & power of & how to adapt it to make it better & these are the easy ones before delving into formulas / chips & programmes, so if you want to leave these until I have a better understanding thats fine but don't tell me 3/4 of a story, my mind would never be at rest, it would be like someone pinching the last page out of a book **broken link removed**


That's a lot of stuff we touched on. CBB, Graham, can you think of others?

could do with a better understanding of biasing but that too may be a way off yet

Can we fudge that into some kind of programme**broken link removed**
 
Last edited:
Muttley=600 said:
ok, instead of multiquoting you a million times, I've colour coded this lot, red has not been covered yet or I don't even have a basic understanding of it or if we have covered it, I'm not relating the name to the subject

Graham, all but one of the red items you highlighted (except for (dimensional analysis) KISS has said aren't going to be covered. There's a method to that madness because you (or me, for that matter) would rarely if ever have an occasion to use them.

For instance, I haven't used a logarithm in, what, 40 years?? Negative resistance - never. Dimensional analysis - don't know what it is (except maybe as a comment such as "BOY, that's a a really big seta honkers there, eh Billy Bob??!!"), etc. You get my drift.

<EDIT>Trust me. You know KISS. If he says you don't need it, you REALLY don't need it.

I went back to page 1 of 12dc sockets and read for a bit. Amazing. How long ago was that?? 2 years?????(chortle)...</EDIT>

You should be proud of yourself for those concepts you have picked up. I'd call that great progress.
 
Last edited:
I call it great progress too & I see what your saying

As a compromise & putting my trust in you both that I'll never cover it again in my lifetime, can I just have a simple definition of the taboo subjects just so I know what they are & what they are used for so I can put them to bed, no need for much detail, just basics :)

I'm chuffed as punch with how far I've come :)

Just looked back, we are about 3 months in......but......but I did have a basic idea of what a resistor did *grin*

& yes, knowing KISS, I trust him :)
 
Last edited:
dimensional analaysis might just be terminology. We covered it in when we found that the units of R*C is time. I also said you can use it when say converting inches to meter.

You know there are 2.54 cm/in, and 12" in a foot and 100 cm in a meter. Using the dimensional analysis concept you can convert inches to meters the same, although not straighforward way of converting R*C to seconds.

Remember?

Identities are things that are sort of known to be true. sin^2(θ)+cos^2(θ) =1 was a simple identity. Try it on your calculator. The entire multiplication table is like a table of "identities". Possibly not in the true sense, but close enough. Circumference/diameter = ∏ might qualify as well.

Variables
Just like you learned V is for Voltage, I current and R resistance and x is the x-axis and y = the y-axis these are just"customary labels".
With Math θ and ∏ have meanings and so do x and y.

K is used in a lot of places to just denote a Constant value. k is a specific constant known as Boltzman's constant. c is the speed of light.
Although some need to be used in context. It's just science/Math vocabulary. e is a specific constant too.
n usually means an integer value. In programming you might see for i = 1 to n. i being index and n being the last number. m in math typicaly denotes the slope and it's from the formula y=mx+b where b is the y-intercept. This is the part I goofed up on because I assumed you knew most of if from basic math.

My reference was "high school math", however, I failed to differentiate business and college prep and I don;t know what the difference was. There was Remedial algebra, Algebra 1, Geometry, algebra 2/trigonometry, pre-calculus and calculus in my high
What you took was a crap-shoot, but it depended on what you had. I transferred schools, so they didn't know where to place me.

Graham missing the stuff that I learned in grade school really floored me.

In college there was pre-Calculus, Calculus 1, Calculus II, Calculus II, Differential equations, discrete math, Probability and Statistics and there was some courses prior to pre-cal, but I didn't pay attention to them. They now test everyone for placement.

LOGarithms we covered a little with the discussion on manually doing a square or cube root and db. Power and Voltage db hasn't really been covered to the point that you understand it. This is still an iffy area and it is cause of some struggle. The concepts have not been adequately covered.
 
Last edited:
dimensional analaysis might just be terminology. We covered it in when we found that the units of R*C is time.
Remember?

I was going to be really clever then & look at my folder, all the stuff I did on R*C has gone along with 90% my notes about caps **broken link removed** but that is not an issue to get concerned about as I can simply recap as we have already covered it once **broken link removed**

Identities are things that are sort of known to be true. sin^2(θ)+cos^2(θ) =1 was a simple identity. Try it on your calculator.

Makes total sense, thats what I call a nice simple explanation **broken link removed** which is all I wanted for things we aren't covering

Variables
Just like you learned V is for Voltage, I current and R resistance and x is the x-axis and y = the y-axis these are just"customary labels".
With Math θ and ∏ have meanings and so do x and y.

Again, makes total sense, this is scary that I'm understanding all this **broken link removed**

K is used in a lot of places to just denote a Constant value. k is a specific constant known as Boltzman's constant. c is the speed of light.
Although some need to be used in context. It's just science/Math vocabulary. e is a specific constant too.
n usually means an integer value. In programming you might see for i = 1 to n. i being index and n being the last number. m in math typicaly denotes the slope and it's from the formula y=mx+b where b is the y-intercept. This is the part I goofed up on because I assumed you knew most of if from basic math

My reference was "high school math", however, I failed to differentiate business and college prep and I don;t know what the difference was. There was Remedial algebra, Algebra 1, Geometry, algebra 2/trigonometry, pre-calculus and calculus in my high

whatever way we proceed I shall carry on learning the math in all it's different forms, I'm quite intrigued by it to be honest & although difficult now shall hopefully become easier with time

What you took was a crap-shoot, but it depended on what you had. I transferred schools, so they didn't know where to place me.

I'm half to blame for my bad schooling, I gave up in middle school as I started working part time, by the time I got to high school they stuck me in engineering with all the drop outs who they couldn't control, I just never covered anything more than basic maths, I picked up lathes, sandcasting, TD & my favorite art, in about a month, so I had best part of 3 yrs helping others who struggled
If I hadnt been so eager to finish school to get to work (only part time, I used to put leaflets through peoples doors to get work for £1 per hour**broken link removed** it was good money for a kid, I remembering asking for a push bike, my parents said, anything you want my son, it is very simple, you go to work, earn money & buy it, so I did & still am to this day)

Graham missing the stuff that I learned in grade school really floored me.

Yes I noticed you were struggling, thats why I'm here to help you **broken link removed** **broken link removed****broken link removed**


LOGarithms we covered a little with the discussion on manually doing a square or cube root and db. Power and Voltage db hasn't really been covered to the point that you understand it. This is still an iffy area and it is cause of some struggle. The concepts have not been adequately covered.

I have basics of logs, numbers with exponents, understanding of db is some kind of measure but I know there is more to it & happy to continue learning
 
Last edited:
Find the cube root of 55 using logarithms?

db is ALWAYS a relative measure.

As for machine shop skills unless your just an operator, trigonometry is usually needed and so is converting to polar/rectangular coordinates. Yup, been there done that. Full machine shop privs except welding although I've had a Tig, Mig and stick in my hand at least once and did very well. Someone else did the set-ups, just like I did for some people using the machine shop.

Examples: A bolt circle without using a dividing head.
CNC and x-y positioning.
 
Last edited:
Find the cube root of 55 using logarithms?

complete guess, as I only have basics, but 55^3 sqrt? log = 2.610544034241366

We may still have a way to go **broken link removed** but I'll give it my best shot

well, if it hasn't got sqrt due to me already using power of 3, it would make it 5.221088068482731 (now what were you saying about rounding up **broken link removed**)but I'm none the wiser to which is correct if any,

interestingly, if I just (55 log then ^3) it comes out at 5.271

Thats what you get for rounding up, I had to change my answer, so how far was I off?

My logical brain tells me this number is way too low? seems gut instinct is not always right, double checked with google, it is saying 3.80, so I am doing it wrong, told you I never cheat

go on then, where did I go wrong
 
Last edited:
Stupidest thing, but I can't help but see "sqrt log" and read "squirt log": some sort of cheese dispenser.::p

Hep me Rhonda , hep, hep me Rhonda...
 
As for machine shop skills unless your just an operator, trigonometry is usually needed and so is converting to polar/rectangular coordinates. Yup, been there done that. Full machine shop privs except welding although I've had a Tig, Mig and stick in my hand at least once and did very well. Someone else did the set-ups, just like I did for some people using the machine shop.

Examples: A bolt circle without using a dividing head.
CNC and x-y positioning.

you mean there was math behind all that, always machined by eye & gauge (yes, I could read a micrometer) welding was another thing I picked up & welded trailers for years, went on holiday to come back to fully qualified chap covering me, swearing our welder was rubbish, I went over, adjusted it, & he asked how as it now welded lovely, my reply was, I ain't got a clue what your on about mate, I do it by ear, same as car tuning for engine timing, Went to landrover rally, a 40 odd year old motor broken down at side of road, we stopped to help, driver totally baffled, he said "I can't understand it, I set it up as per manual" I nearly fell over laughing, it has 40 odd years of wear on it mate, got spanner moved dizzy, told him to start it, he said it wouldn't, cranked it over, moved it some more with eyes shut, he said thank you when we got to rally, saying it had never run that good

you learn to adapt to use what you can **broken link removed**
 
Learned early on that the cardboard of a box of Ju Ju beans candy with about 15mm thick, which was close enough to the point gap needed for most VW engines, at least to get'em to run. Tear off a piece of the box and, presto, instant gapper.

Ya'll are guys after my own heart.
 
So I need to look further into log sums by the look of it, but I'm outta time for tonight, training a new guy at work over the weekend so won't be on much, always worn out Monday morning so you can take a breather from me

More homework for me :) I will get your answer when I get time, don't think I've quit

Night both

Now my math ain't that good but you don't mean 15mm do you.lol maybe 1mm
 
Last edited:
Here is a blurb about Logs that isn't too bad. https://www.abelard.org/sums/teaching_number_arithmetic_mathematics_indices_magnitude_logarithms.php It does miss one thing though. I'll keep looking.

Note the contents in the first two tables on how to teach math. Your barely in the third box.

Suppose you had a mill with an x-y readout and you have set center to the center of the 10" diameter piece you have on the bed. Suppose you wanted a 8" bolt circle. How do you get the x-y coordinates?

When I was a kid, maybe 10, and ran the lawn mower without oil, my father said, "Your rebuilding the engine" and I did.

But that [deleted] Holley Economaster carb gave me fits to set up. Finally, I learned the propane enrichment method and I was set for life.

I got my first car for $50 USD after it had ran into a tree when I was 15 and could not drive yet. You can bet I learned something getting it road worthy.
 
Morning KISS
Surely the answer to the mill question is to simply do one half of the piece via the rule/scales on the handles/slides, then do the other half (I'm talking good old fashioned milling machine here, none of this fancy electric stuff they have these days)
i.e. 4" max before stopping from start point

Will have a look at math links when I get time, yes I have a long climb, looking forward to the view from the top :)
 
Last edited:
Actually, the co-ordinate transformation is easy. Basically you have n holes in the bold circle, some r distance from the center.

This is an application of polar to rectangular conversions.

Once you figure out if you want to work in Radians or degrees then its 2∏/n or 36/n apart.

You substitute the relations: x= rsin(θ) and y=rcos(θ) for all of the angles from 0-360 or 0 to 2∏.

We will use this concept with AC circuits a little later.

But actually given the project, I could create all sort of fluff and make a word problem out of it. But for you, I'll make a comparatively easy one out of it.

Suppose someone dropped off a DXF file that had a bold circle on it and you had to machine the bolt circle. Soem ways to do it are:
1. Layout by hand. Protractor and compass
2. Dividing head.
3. Probably some fancy X-Y gizmo might have it directly.
4. Get the data by opening the file in a CAD program and use the measurement functions of the CAD program
5. A spread sheet
6 Doing it my hand.

I once had a really nasty truss to analyze where all of the angles and distances were not there. This teacher was something else because we were given a week or so to do the problem and it was open book. His suggestion was to type the truss into a CAD program to get what you needed and it was a whole lot easier. Yea, this guy was teaching real skills that you could use., not this theoretical stuff.

It was bad enough that you had about 8 equations to set up and 8 unknowns to solve.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest threads

New Articles From Microcontroller Tips

Back
Top