Rant

3v0 said:

Any service provided by government costs several times what it should be worth and is seldom delivered in a timely manor.

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I don't think that's always the case.

Despite the crumbling economy people commie Cuba have a similar life expectancy to those in the US. Many put this down to the fact that they have fully socialised healthcare. The amazing thing is that they spend a fraction of what the US spend per person on healthcare.

Don't forget that this is a public service, I'd agree if you were talking about a factory producing goods but that's not the case.

Healthcare in Cuba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In one, not so small, way it is good because huge profits have allowed for the development of CATscan, MRI, and PETscans. And some drugs would not have been created if the possibility of gross profits were not present. Perhaps many things I do not have a clue about.

One could argue that much/(maybe all) of the denied care would not exist without the massive profits

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That would only be the case if the whole system were socialised (as in Cuba).

I think medical research and the cutting edge should remain in private hands. Public healthcare should be there for doctors and hospitals which should be run as charities not for profit.

HarveyH42 said:

What the government really needs to do is put a cap on lawsuits, and attorney fees. People shouldn't be able to turn around and sue the doctor, after saving their miserable life, because he left an 'ugly' 1.5 centimeter scar on their belly. The hospital can be a busy place, lots of pressure, lots of potential for mistakes. There are some cases that do deserve consideration, such as administrative mistakes, that gets the patient unneeded procedures that result in loss of function or death. People don't seem to understand that the doctor can not heal your wounds, we have to do that ourselves. The doctor can set bones, so the can mend reasonably straight. He can give drugs to help fight infections, but your body must still do the bulk of the work.

Lawyers shouldn't be allowed to advertise for medical clients, since many need convincing that just being alive just isn't enough these days. They flash the dollars signs, remind them of the unreasonably high medical bill, and point out that they weren't made perfectly whole for the ordeal they just endured. They deserve compensation, and for a mere 30%, they'll do all the paperwork, court appearances cost a little more...

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I completely agree.

kchriste said:

Capitalism only works when the consumer has a choice:
You can choose whether to buy a Toyota, Ford, GM, Honda or nothing at all. You can wait for the prices to come down. For when you have the money, job, etc.
Have a heart attack and you have no choice and no time to "shop around", etc.

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I agree, I don't think capitalism works for everything. If you fall sick, you'll be rushed to the nearest hospital. You won't stop and think about which one offers the best value care for mony.

Partly socialising the health system would probably push the companies into providing better care.

OutToLunch said:

The way to better health care is not to socialize it. This will only make things worse. When services are handed out for free, the demand will far exceed the supply and the system will fail.

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I don't think that will be the cause with healthcare.

There is a limit number of people who need it. Those who don't will be quickly turned away. Here in the UK we have free healthcare and most people still avoid visits to the doctor and hospital.

Some countries used to have socialised healthcare but it deteriorated as soon as they started privatising it.

Take Russia for example, under the Soviet system, heathcare was free for everyone that needed it. After the collapse of the Soviet Union the new government still wanted to maintain a free system but they wanted to turn their back on communism so they privatised all the hospitals and set up a compulsory insurance system. This didn't work out as intended and the health of the Russian population declined as a result.

Health in Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A similar thing happend in China after free market reforms were brought in.
Public health in the People's Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Eventually the Cinese govenment has decided to reform the system. If the US carries on the way it is then China will catch up and overtake.

One can not look at this sort of statistic in isolation.

Many other factors could be in play.

One would have to compare diet/stress/physical condition and others things. If they are all equal then that stat would have meaning.

tcmtech said:

Bring it on!
I dropped my health insurance because every time I needed it It was not there for me.
Paying big money to get screwed every single time I needed it was enough to make me call it quits.
I hope every other American with insurance gets screwed like I did! Honestly I really do!
It would help wake up enough people to perhaps get them to take an honest look at how most every other even half way developed country runs their countries health care needs far more efficiently and effectively than ours.

My grandpa had major heart surgery this winter. He had some of the best coverage available too and he is still getting screwed by his insurance provider because of fine print specifying what medications they will or wont cover. They said what he needs is not typical of open heart surgery with multiple bypasses and an artificial valve. WTF?
He had the work done by the best doctors in the world!
And they say he got by easy and only needed standard medications and less of those than most!

WTF! The people that dont know a scalpel from a stake knife are determining what a heart surgery patient does or does not need? WTF!

So you Canadian guys, Do you have an application I can fill out to be come a Canadian resident?

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Actually, Canadian healthcare is not free in every province. I think we pay about $50/mo for a family.

Case in point: In 1992 I had kidney cancer (renal cell carcinoma), usually fatal because it is not normally detected until it has spread to the bones. My doctor immediately got me an appointment with a specialist. One week after some blood and ultrasound tests and an operation, the kidney was removed. By the way, my doctor is ANY doctor I choose who will have me and there is No bill for seeing a doctor any time I WANT.

The bill was $zero. I had some supplementary insurance from work and all it did was upgrade my hospital room to semi-private (2 occupants/room)and pay for cable TV.

All drugs are covered but if there is a generic brand available, only costs for the generic is paid for.

The doctors are always complaining that the government doesn't pay them enough, or as much as US doctors. Government's position is "So, go work in the USA". Some of them actually do go, but come back when they find out that doctor bills in the USA are not always paid. Their income in Canada is always paid, so they come back.

I'm in my 50's now. I shudder to think how much medical insurance would cost someone with my age and medical history in the USA. We're still just paying that $50/mo per family in British Columbia, Canada. The cost of this sytem is higher income taxes. If you don't have income, you don't need to pay. Everyone is covered somehow, every child, even the homeless bum on the street. That's the way it should be.

Actually, Canadian health care is not free in every province. I think we pay about $50/mo for a family.

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I would happily pay double that a month just to know that when do need an emergency room visit I wont get screwed by an insurance company the says they pay 90% on emergency room visits.
When I did have to make one they stiffed me 100% because they say the policy only covers that percentage if I am there for more than four hours. I was there for only three.
My insurance agent did not even know about that 4 hour clause until he filed my claim with the head corporate office!
He had a full and sympathetic apology the day I dropped the insurance I had. He said he understood completely and agreed it was s dirty and underhanded way of passing the buck back to the customer because a typical emergency room visit is considered to be 2 hours long by the companies own statistics.

I think the more experience a person has with the system here in the USA the more they realize just how screwed up it is.

Perhaps you should petition and harass the government to get it sorted.

speakerguy79 said:

I think the more experience a person has with the system here in the USA the more they realize just how screwed up it is.

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Hey! It's the same thing over here too! What a coincidence!

tcmtech said:

The people that dont know a scalpel from a stake knife

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Is that what I use to kill vampires? Will the insurance company cover any injuries I receive during this procedure?

j/k TCM...

Here in Canada I don't pay income tax (they pay me) and I don't pay the new Health Care tax because my income is low.
My recent heart attack and surgery cost me nothing. I had to pay $14.00 for the telephone in my room. I didn't pay extra for a television nor for internet in the hospital.

I paid $440.00 for medicine when I left the hospital and I applied to have my government pay 80% of it.

$440?

And I thought prescription charges were a rip-off!

We pay a fixed £7 fee per item but it's free if you're very old or very young or on a low income. Many people whine and complain about this and are putting pressure on the government to make it free.

In Scotland and Wales all prescriptions are free.

The $440.00 is for 6 months of prescription drugs for my heart to recover.
We get free samples of prescription drugs from doctors.
I think they are free when I am 65 years old soon.

tcmtech said:

I would happily pay double that a month just to know that when do need an emergency room visit I wont get screwed by an insurance company the says they pay 90% on emergency room visits.
When I did have to make one they stiffed me 100% because they say the policy only covers that percentage if I am there for more than four hours. I was there for only three.
My insurance agent did not even know about that 4 hour clause until he filed my claim with the head corporate office!
He had a full and sympathetic apology the day I dropped the insurance I had. He said he understood completely and agreed it was s dirty and underhanded way of passing the buck back to the customer because a typical emergency room visit is considered to be 2 hours long by the companies own statistics.

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That's one of the big points that is really messing up our health care system, well pretty much an insurance for that matter. They need to make the terms clear, concise, and consistent throughout. They make reasonable offers on the first page, then several pages later in the document, you find that it almost never applies, or up to the insurance company's choice. Shouldn't have to fight with them to pay a claim. I can understand that they need some way to avoid having people going directly to the emergency room for everything, where all that's needed is a simple bandage, ice pack, or a couple of aspirin. You are paying them for the peace of mind, to know that you can get help when you need it, without financial disaster. It's unreasonable to expect the average person to read, understand, and remember every line in a 40 page document when they are hurt or seriously ill, let alone try to comprehend what the doctors are trying to say. Then you got to try and match the two up (before you die), and decide what is covered, and what you can afford out of pocket...

The insurance industry needs to be better regulated, and stop the exclusions. You should know that you are covered, or not. Shouldn't be a maybe it's covered.

There are just too many people getting money out of the health care system, and not as many putting money into it. Don't you think it's a little wrong for these companies to sell shares of stock. It might be good if their profits came from people just staying healthy, instead of just not paying the claims...

US hospital emergency rooms have to provide care to everyone.

People without money often use this 'free' but expensive care for all health care needs.

It is messed up in that it is overly expensive. But it does keep the poorest people from falling through the cracks.

The working poor are not so lucky. They are expected to pay their bills.

Is that what I use to kill vampires? Will the insurance company cover any injuries I receive during this procedure?

j/k TCM...

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Yea I caught it later too. Thought I would just leave it and see if it irritated anybody!

If it slips past this crappy spell check I do not claim responsibility!
( I might make that my new signature!)

And I do think we are dealing with Vampires though. They ware suits and call them selves insurance companies and medical administration!
They take every opportunity to suck the financial life blood out of any one they interact with!

tcmtech said:

Yea I caught it later too. Thought I would just leave it and see if it irritated anybody!

If it slips past this crappy spell check I do not claim responsibility!
( I might make that my new signature!)

And I do think we are dealing with Vampires though. They ware suits and call them selves insurance companies and medical administration!
They take every opportunity to suck the financial life blood out of any one they interact with!

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Yeah... too bad we don't have a grammar checker on here, I could really use that. I've noticed the spell checker seems to be British/Australian by default? But I'm not qualified to be the linguistics nazi

I totally agree about the vampires. I pay close to 7K a year for health insurance and flex account. I'm becoming a fan of the HSA where it is like a 401K for health care (rolls over and collects interest).

Part of the account management services for flex count on you not getting everything you put into it. Last year I had about $800 left over on my flex and ended up buying some prescription Oakleys. Man did that hurt spending that much on sunglasses... use it or lose it. also bought 5 years worth of motrin, first aid kits for the car, stuff for immediate family etc. It's such a rip off.

There's only about 8.1 million people in Scotland and Wales combined. There's 20 million in NY state alone, and around 300 million total in the US. Socialist systems work well on a small scale, they fail utterly the larger they get.

gabe 7k a year? It almost makes more sense to put the money into a low yield safe investment fund.

Blatant plug but my wife picked up basic prescription sunglasses for 15 bucks from Zenni Optical - Complete prescription eyeglasses from $8.00
The aren't Oakleys but who cares =\ You just send them your prescription (which in the US at least doctors have to give you if you request it for no charge)

Sceadwian said:

There's only about 8.1 million people in Scotland and Wales combined.

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You've forgotten about England and Northern Ireland.

Socialist systems work well on a small scale, they fail utterly the larger they get.

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What gives you that idea? All socialist systems of any size are doomed to failure unless they're things that people want such as healthcare, education and welfare.

You already have the last of the above so why not extend it to healthcare?

Universal healthcare seems to be pretty accepted in the rest of the world so why is it so controversial in the US?

Does it have its roots in the cold war? Is it the red scare McCarthyism and all that bad stuff that's putting you off?

I think it's probably more to do with the healthcare companies being too powerful. They probably put pressure on the government and print propaganda about how the US adopting a universal healthcare system would send the country down the road to socialism or similar rubbish.

Does it have its roots in the cold war? Is it the red scare McCarthyism and all that bad stuff that's putting you off?

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I can't even share except with the closest of friends that I'm an atheist. If I did, it would mean social ostracization for members of my family, let alone me. The Godless Communist propoganda and the cold war are very much responsible for today's political landscape in the US. Remember Palin's wonderful quote "When Putin rears his head"?

Where do you live at speakerguy? That's kind of sad, unfortunately very common if you live in the 'bible belt'