Punishment for 8 year old

[Papabravo]

It's really about "us" and "them". If you belong to "them" for whatever reason then all manner of indignities may be perpetrated upon your person by "us". The social contract seems to require this behavior in order to reinforce belonging to "us". I'm quite sure that religion is too limiting a context for this discussion of man's inhumanity to man. The literature is replete with examples of this theme.

 

[BeeBop]

Well they brought the "Comfy Chair"
**broken link removed**
Ximinez: So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair!

Wow, that sure looks like a Franny Bacon painting!

 

[dknguyen]

What movie are those from?

 

[blueroomelectronics]

What movie are those from?

It's all Monty Python sketches. From the old TV show.

 

[Funny NYPD]

they are still young, we should give them hope.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

What movie are those from?

You might have a cute avatar, but your education is sadly lacking in some equally important areas!

I brought my daughter up properly! - she loves Monty Python, and even has the DVD "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" - one of the best films ever. She's played it for numerous friends, all of whom have fallen in love with Monty Python.

Go and buy it, or hire it - don't bother with "The Life of Brian", that's no where near as good.

 

[Hank Fletcher]

The opinion of contemporary education theory, at least in the developed, Western world, is that punishment in any form is inherently wrong.

I think I articulated my thoughts on Christianity and other religions (at least vicariously) well enough in the "Do you believe in God" thread, so I'm going to let that one alone here.

As for the references to Monty Python, I think there must be some sort law of nature determining that given an infinite amount of time, all nerdly discussions will eventually gravitate towards Monty Python. Either that, or Star Wars. Possibly Dungeons and Dragons.

 

[RadioRon]

As for the references to Monty Python, I think there must be some sort law of nature determining that given an infinite amount of time, all nerdly discussions will eventually gravitate towards Monty Python. Either that, or Star Wars. Possibly Dungeons and Dragons.

Well, at least some things change. It used to be that Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy exerted that kind of gravity.

 

[Hank Fletcher]

It's really about "us" and "them". If you belong to "them" for whatever reason then all manner of indignities may be perpetrated upon your person by "us". The social contract seems to require this behavior in order to reinforce belonging to "us".

I think the "us and them" idea is part of what the education theory to which I referred earlier conflicts. There is only "us," and as such, to inflict punishment is only to in some way harm the whole (and thus in some part, yourself).

I'm quite sure that religion is too limiting a context for this discussion of man's inhumanity to man. The literature is replete with examples of this theme.

For instance, Heart of Darkness, or the movie version, Apocalypse Now. I should qualify that, since the imagery of the movie can be confusing.

The point of both movie and book stems from Kurtz's epiphany with respect to "the horror" of war. Specifically, Kurtz is referring to the extent to which a victor must be capable of detaching itself from all capacity to empathize with the enemy, but while still retaining the ability to return to humanity in times of non-conflict.

As a result of his experiences, Kurtz was not able to do that, and as a result went insane and became a failed soldier. Kurtz was only able to live in an idealized utopia without conflict.

In many ways, his sentiment is admirable, mainly due to his expression of disgust ("the horror") at the extent to which one group of humans will go in harming other humans for the purpose of forwarding their own interests.

It's this disgust, and the capacity to reason that Kurtz's idealized utopia might through some method actually be possible, that drives the non-punishment, education theory. I dare say I think it drives the majority of us to think, "There might be a better way of solving the problem of this eight-year-old's theft."

 

[Hank Fletcher]

Well, at least some things change. It used to be that Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy exerted that kind of gravity.

Ah, but doesn't your referencing it now prove that it still does? 42!

 

[quixotron]

Considering Christianity is a long story of murder, torture and atrocities (not to mentioned death and destruction from on high, via some imaginary fictional being), this is essentially a punishment of a highly religious culture, like Christianity.

Spanish Inquisition - who were they?.

where did christ say to murder people?

the only time when murder was acceptable was when the lord ordered it, for example, as he ordered saul to exterminate the amalekites(book of 1 samuel 15: 20).

i have received no such commandment from the lord. and if the lord murders a people, that is becoz they rebelled against him-retribution.

and this is not murder in malice/wrath, it is judgement/sentencing for disobedience/rebellion. those people were having sex with each other, worshiping idols, killing people, sacrificing children to pagan gods, pillaging other people and living in disgust, there was no other logical response except for punishment.

he can do it, becoz he is god and perfect, we cannot kill or at least by our hands.

the spanish inquisition was not of christ. surely you jest? and what happened to imperial spain?

it was destroyed...the only thing remains are remnants of a fascist state turned EU.

 

[Hank Fletcher]

...those people were having sex with each other...

Heavens, no!

...there was no other logical response except for punishment.

I think what you described is actually called genocide.

 

[dknguyen]

where did christ say to murder people?

He may or may have not. THe bible may or may have not. But either way, people have been murdered in the name of Christianity (as well as other religions of course). I think the two most well know ones for Christianity was the Spanish Inquisition and Emperor Constantine's unification of Christianity. That's what I meant about the thinking about what your religion is actually telling you to do before acting on it blindly. It's happened before for Christians, and it seems to be happening to some Islamic followers now. It has more to do with what the followers do than the religion itself. Humans can warp anything to their own ends.

And the Emperor who consolidated the Roman Empire under Christianity, and did some not so savoury things to do it was Emperor Constantine. THat's the name I was trying to remember.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/why/legitimization.html

One of the first things Constantine does, as emperor, is start persecuting other Christians. The Gnostic Christians are targeted...and other dualist Christians. Christians who don't have the Old Testament as part of their canon are targeted. The list of enemies goes on and on. There's a kind of internal purge of the church as one emperor ruling one empire tries to have this single church as part of the religious musculature of his vision of a renewed Rome. And it's with this theological vision in mind that Constantine not only helps the bishops to iron out a unitary policy of what a true Christian believes, but he also, interestingly, turns his attention to Jerusalem, and rebuilds Jerusalem just as a righteous king should do. But what Constantine does is take the city, which was something of a backwater, and he begins to build beautiful basilicas and architecturally ambitious projects in the city itself. The sacred space of the Temple Mount he abandons. It's not reclaimable. And what he does is [to] religiously relocate the center of gravity of the city around the places where Christ had suffered, where he had been buried, or where he [had] been raised. So that in the great basilicas that he built, Constantine has a new Jerusalem, that's splendid and beautiful and... his reputation as an imperial architect resonates with great figures in biblical history like David and Solomon. In a sense, Constantine is a non-apocalyptic Messiah for the church. ...

The bishops are terribly grateful for this kind of imperial attention. It's not the western Middle Ages. The lines of power are unambiguous. Constantine is absolutely the source of authority. And there's no question about that. But the bishops are able to take advantage of Constantine's mood and his curious intellectual interest in things like Christology and the Trinity and Church organization. They're able to have bibles copied at public expense. They are finally able to have public Christian architecture and big basilicas. So there's a comfortable symbiotic relationship between the empire and the church, one that, in a sense, is what defines the cultural powerhouse of Europe and the West."

Now that is one powerful dude.

And said council where Constantine and the bishops determined what a true Christian believes and which scripctures (or stories, or writings, whatever you call them) would be considered valid was the "Council Of Nicea"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

It's actually a very interesting read. I've been thinking about getting a bible or whatever other scripture and sitting down and reading it. There's seems to be a shortage of the kinds of stories I like to read.

 

[quixotron]

He may or may have not. THe bible may or may have not. But either way, people have been murdered in the name of Christianity (as well as other religions of course). I think the two most well know ones for Christianity was the Spanish Inquisition and Emperor Constantine's unification of Christianity. That's what I meant about the thinking about what your religion is actually telling you to do before acting on it blindly. It's happened before for Christians, and it seems to be happening to some Islamic followers now. It has more to do with what the followers do than the religion itself. Humans can warp anything to their own ends.

show me where christ ordered us to do so.

And the Emperor who consolidated the Roman Empire under Christianity, and did some not so savoury things to do it was Emperor Constantine. THat's the name I was trying to remember.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/why/legitimization.html



Now that is one powerful dude.

And said council where Constantine and the bishops determined what a true Christian believes and which scripctures (or stories, or writings, whatever you call them) would be considered valid was the "Council Of Nicea"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

It's actually a very interesting read. I've been thinking about getting a bible or whatever other scripture and sitting down and reading it. There's seems to be a shortage of the kinds of stories I like to read.

uhhh scripture doesn't recognize the papacy/roman catholic church. we can discuss it in another thread if need be. but christ never authorized us to carry out said actions. now i don't know if those events were prohesized or not in the OT, that would be different. constantine could have been an anti-christ, i'd have to double check.

but christians on their own can't.

and i wouldn't trust/read anything thats outside scripture-its garbage.

genocide is the correct term, yes. so what's your point, hank?

 

[dknguyen]

uhhh scripture doesn't recognize the papacy/roman catholic church.?

But you still go to Church do you not? Or is it a personal belief and systems/structure thing. Or did you find a way to reconcile the two. I don't consider the religion and the institution the same thing. I find that dangerous. I don't really trust the institution. A lot of people seem to think the institution is the religion which I have a problem with.

genocide is the correct term, yes. so what's your point, hank?

Careful there this could lead down a different road about something else if it not handled properly.

 

[dknguyen]

Just saw the US flag.

"If one is good, fifty must be just right."

Lmao.

 

[quixotron]

But you still go to Church do you not? Or is it a personal belief and systems/structure thing. Or did you find a way to reconcile the two. I don't consider the religion and the institution the same thing. I find that dangerous. I don't really trust the institution. A lot of people seem to think the institution is the religion which I have a problem with.

no i don't go to church. i am distrustful and suspicious about churches. i read and study scripture on my own. thats not to say all chruches are bad, its just that i have yet to find one that isn't a lying, treacherous sanctuary for the devil.

if i want to talk to the lord, i'll pray. i don't need a priest or a deacon or a wizard/magician to intervene. everything you need for life and the afterlife is in scripture.

Careful there this could lead down a different road about something else if it not handled properly.

The lord ordered saul to commit genocide on the amalekites, i just wanted to know where hank is leading with this.

 

[Hank Fletcher]

genocide is the correct term, yes. so what's your point, hank?

Your reasoning seems to be that genocide is justified if Christ commands it. The world can do without that kind of single-minded righteousness.

I think this is the rocky road (mmm...) that dknguyen gave fair warning about. I think he's been quite fair about providing you with more information to, let's say, broaden your understanding a little further than what's written in one book. That's a good idea, even if your only reason for doing so might be to better understand the context and meaning (that is, the rest of the world) in which that book exists.

But I won't tip-toe, even down a rocky road. Genocide, in any form, is wrong. People who support genocide, for any reason, are wrong, hateful, stupid, and not worth wasting my time on except to deter. I hope that's not you. That's my point.

 

[Krumlink]

All this religious mumbo jumbo is kind of funny

Quix all you do is complain about bag o christianity and say some religious crap and then you get all offended. Jeez.

Anyway all you have to do to an 8 yr old (now a days) is to take away their cellphone and delete their myspace acct. I would just scream at them really loudly in their face

 

[dknguyen]

no i don't go to church. i am distrustful and suspicious about churches. i read and study scripture on my own. thats not to say all chruches are bad, its just that i have yet to find one that isn't a lying, treacherous sanctuary for the devil.

if i want to talk to the lord, i'll pray. i don't need a priest or a deacon or a wizard/magician to intervene. everything you need for life and the afterlife is in scripture.




The lord ordered saul to commit genocide on the amalekites, i just wanted to know where hank is leading with this.

Right on. <Thumbs up Icon Here>. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

I think what happened is I started arguing the institution and you argued the religion and it was never quite clear to either of us which one the other was talking about until now.