Interfacing Propeller board to Car

[jbalat]

Maybe thats what he meant ?
... I dont know, I thought he may have been having a go at me for going off topic ?

 

[Mr RB]

I give it a high probability that by "forum" he meant "thread".

 

[jbalat]

Oznog and other Naysayers!!

Just wanted to give you all the opportunity to say I told you so HA HA

My first test with the MAF board gave no fuel savings (12.8Ltrs/100 compared with 12.5Ltrs/100 without HHO)

The board was adjusted to about 10% leaning which is just before the car started losing power


Thanks for all your input

Happy New Year

 

[Oznog]

Hehe... well, at least you got some electronics experience out of it.

 

[jbalat]

Hehe... well, at least you got some electronics experience out of it.

Oznog, I spoke too soon..

I had a crack in my bubbler which was letting the hho escape under the bonnet (lucky no fire)

also I didnt know about the 2 minute rule which is to leave all mods off for 2 minutes while the car calibrates itself

IT WORKS !!

**broken link removed**

 

[Sceadwian]

jbalat, it operates. This does not mean it works. The distinction is in scientific proof of the gain achieved vs the long term effect to the entire system..

 

[Oznog]

And that's the thing. I already knew that leaning out an engine can produce slightly better mpg, but creates huge emissions problems, excessive cylinder temps, and major a risk of detonation which will destroy a piston. Leaning out does not even require HHO.

In fact, the basic logical problem here is that the ECU will be adjusting fuel usage to achieve the proper slightly-rich mixture regardless of fuel type, and there's no indication that that mix should be any different if a small amount of H2 and O2 is added in the intake. The logic given that it changes the ratio is definitely bogus because the ECU doesn't even use the air pressure/temp/throttle/MAF for that except to track dynamic changes- in the end it always seeks to calibrate its tables to satisfy the target ratio at the O2 sensor. So adding more "fuel" of HHO that the ECU "doesn't understand" will eventually be understood as the O2 sensor adjusts in closed-loop mode. Except that by defeating these sensors it can't- which logically seems to mean you seek to defeat the ECU's ratio control, not correct it.

I am prepared to believe that HHO works if someone truly knowledgeable about IC engines did a more in-depth study of what it does and shows why it works and whether emissions specifications can be met and that damage will not occur. I'd be fine with it. But simply getting 10%-15% better mpg by fooling the engine to run leaner, with no understanding of what's going on inside the engine, doesn't actually prove anything. I wish it did. I like the idea of saving fuel! And I like tinkering and like "home grown" ideas.

But this "testing" is bordering on pseudoscience, because while it APPEARS to be legitimate testing with controls and measurement, the lack of understanding of the combustion process and the proper questions undermine the validity of the whole experimental process in producing a meaningful, actionable bottom line.

 

[jbalat]

If its less money I need to pay at the pump then I dont care how it works

I agree though that a one off doesnt prove anything, and I have heard of people being able to lean their engines to get up to 18% savings. Saying that my EGT has not gone up at all.

So my aim is to get around 40% if possible but I will need a better generator. The guidlines are that you are supposed to output 1Ltr/min of hho for every litre of engine capacity so I still have a long way to go.
In order to reduce current leakages my new cell I am designing will be a dry cell with 6 off 10" x 10" plates 316L S/S seperated by 3mm epdm gaskets. I am hoping to laser cut and laser engrave them with cross hatch pattern to further increase the surface area (price permitting)

P.S. Oznog I mentioned my O2 is unplugged so I dont believe the ecu could try and compensate. I think the calibration cycle was giving me the problem before.

 

[Oznog]

That's what I'm saying. If you left the O2 sensor plugged in, it'll recalibrate on the fly and provide the correct mixture regardless of fuel type. The fact that you needed to remove it to get a result tends to prove that it's simply leaned out the mixture, not created a different type of combustion. I'm not sure how the HHO is actually even necessary to do this.

It'll matter if it burns the piston or valves. Detonation can literally burn a hole through a piston, which will cost far more than saving 14% on many many fillups. Unfortunately, you really can't prove whether it's at risk of detonation or not. Since you've got the system hacked rather randomly, it will not react to different fuel blends, elevations, or temps as intended. In fact, the ethanol blended fuel sold all over now is a problem for sure because the ethanol content varies. Ethanol is less dense than gasoline and requires less oxygen for a given injector pulse. In normal use, the O2 sensor adapts the system as ethanol content varies, but you've got no method of adaption for that at all.

And the other point- the smog emissions- NOx- may be tens of times worse than allowed. Hundreds, even. It's not really responsible or "green" to save a bit of fuel by spewing a lot of toxic emissions. Like I'm saying, the lean-burn fuel improvements were already known to work, but banned because of the pollution problem. Does your city do emissions testing? I mean, sure, you could just plug the O2 sensor back in for that day, but again, not really a responsible thing.

I tried the acetone-in-the-fuel thing for kicks awhile back in an old 302 5L van. Carefully used the "recommended" ratio. Mpg did not improve. Failed for low-speed NOx emissions, only time I've ever had a failure. Well, I did some random "fixes" on things (changed the air filter and spark plug wires, unlikely to make a big difference) and run that tank near empty before refilling to flush it out. Then, suddenly, it was well within normal again. Well, I WISH I could have brought it back for retesting after flushing the acetone, but you're only allowed one free retest and it's a long wait to have them do the test. I think it's pretty likely that the acetone did it.

 

[Sceadwian]

I don't think he's gonna listen Oznog, he's gonna keep doing what he's doing, and when the car starts to crap out he's gonna remove his HHO system hook things back up stock and sell it to some poor schmuck who will have the entire engine cease up on them within six months.

This is what happens when 'science' is done without knowing what you're doing.

 

[jbalat]

I don't think he's gonna listen Oznog, he's gonna keep doing what he's doing, and when the car starts to crap out he's gonna remove his HHO system hook things back up stock and sell it to some poor schmuck who will have the entire engine cease up on them within six months.
This is what happens when 'science' is done without knowing what you're doing.

Oznog, Sceadwian if right. I dont mind if my car decides to die, its a real fuel guzzler anyway and market value for olde 4wd's these days is stuff all.

I know of others like 'The Smack' who have done over 100,000 km on hho and have had no problem, they even claim that the engine runs cleaner and much better emissions. In fact some of the tests have show about 1/10 of the normal car emissions. This is a proven technology in my books. There are several companies that are in the process of getting it all certified. One of these is a reputable company in australia that invented the LPG injections system for diesel.

The questions is that whether my install is working properly, ie. is it leaning the mixture with poor emissions or is it burning the hho properly and giving less emissions. This is something I will need to test.

Let me know of any simple tests I can do...?