• Welcome to our site! Electro Tech is an online community (with over 170,000 members) who enjoy talking about and building electronic circuits, projects and gadgets. To participate you need to register. Registration is free. Click here to register now.

integrated circuit to discrete circuit conversion - help needed

Status
Not open for further replies.

Pathfinder-33

New Member
Is there a software that would automate conversion of integrated circuit to discrete circuit?
For example if I have some old, more or less simple in terms of functionality IC that is not manufactured anymore and I want to make a replacement for it, the program would let me type in the functions and properties of IC and then it would generate discrete pcb layout.
Is there program like this?
 

Hero999

Banned
No, it's not possible, not without taking the die out of its package and looking at it through a scanning electron microscope anyway.
 

Torben

Well-Known Member
Sometimes an IC's datasheet will include a functional schematic showing what the equivalent circuit is, but I have the feeling that these schematics are somewhat idealized and would require extra work to make them actually work if you were to try to implement them with discrete components.

I'm also pretty sure I've never seen one which included component values.


Torben
 

RCinFLA

Well-Known Member
Many I.C. designs rely on matched devices within their circuitry. Although not impossible, it is tough to do the matching, including temperature gradients across the circuit discretely.

You would likely be redesigning the circuit to do it discretely.
 

Hero999

Banned
I'm also pretty sure I've never seen one which included component values.
Well now you have, see page 15 of the LM317 datasheet.
http://www.electro-tech-online.com/custompdfs/2009/08/LM117-1.pdf

Reverse engineering and chip cloning was pretty common in the cold war when the USSR would reverse engineer US and Japanese ICs in anything from calculators and computer gamse to military computers.

No doubt there's still some Russian company who you can pay loads of money to reverse engineer and clone ICs for you.:D
 

Thunderchild

New Member
if you know exactly what the IC does and its something not too complicated perhaps you can replicate it with a micro controller ? or find a substitute that will do the same job ?
 

Torben

Well-Known Member
Well now you have, see page 15 of the LM317 datasheet.
http://www.electro-tech-online.com/custompdfs/2009/08/LM117-2.pdf

Reverse engineering and chip cloning was pretty common in the cold war when the USSR would reverse engineer US and Japanese ICs in anything from calculators and computer gamse to military computers.

No doubt there's still some Russian company who you can pay loads of money to reverse engineer and clone ICs for you.:D
Well willya lookit that. Cool!

er. . .I don't think I'm going to discrete that thing. Even in SMT that would be a bit large. Although it might be fun to do someday just for novelty. Imagine working with someone on a project and pulling out this big box with 3 lugs:

"What on Earth is that thing?"
"A homebrew 317." s
*boggle*

:)


Torben

[Edit: hehe. I used 'discrete' as a verb. Calvin: "Verbing weirds language." Sorry all. ;) ]
 
Last edited:

prophatche

New Member
even if....

if you know exactly what the IC does and its something not too complicated perhaps you can replicate it with a micro controller ? or find a substitute that will do the same job ?
hello,normally things must go and do so but i think you will be oblidged to do an external circuit and make the pins correspond on the main circuit.
 

crutschow

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
It makes a big difference whether the IC is analog or digital as to generating a discrete clone.

Digital circuits would be easier, analog circuits generally much more difficult. But in either case matching the performance of the IC with discrete devices is generally not possible due to the lack of matching and much higher parasitic capacitance of a discrete design layout. Also certain components, like multiple emitter transistors, are not available in discrete devices.
 

bountyhunter

Well-Known Member
Reverse engineering and chip cloning was pretty common in the cold war
It was real common in the 70's and 80's. The semi companies would strip the plastic off an IC, get 600X photos made and have the die cross sectioned and analyzed to get doping profiles and junction depths. Guess how I know that.....

You wouldn't believe how hard it was to generate a schematic from a 400X plot of surface devices off the die. The plots were as big as a snooker table.

Most smart companies never published accurate schematics, they were generalized approximations where circuit sections were lumped together. It was also basically impossible to get a clone of their fabrication process, so the parts worked but not always as well.
 
Last edited:

prophatche

New Member
hi Crutschow you 're right enough as
higher parasitic capacitance of a discrete design layout. Also certain components, like multiple emitter transistors, are not available in discrete devices.
but i thing that if it's a simple circuit such as timers with IC NE555 we can try with discrete components? can't we?
 

kchriste

New Member
Forum Supporter
For example if I have some old, more or less simple in terms of functionality IC that is not manufactured anymore and I want to make a replacement for it
WHat IC do you want to replace? Maybe there is an equivilent that can be subbed.
 

Pathfinder-33

New Member
Well I need CEM3310:
Curtis Electromusic Specialties CEM3310 Voltage Controlled Envelope Generator
View attachment c3310pdf.pdf

I was thinking about making more or less PCB that would have similar functionality and properties.
I though that there must be some program that would help me to do this.
 

Hero999

Banned
I suppose it's theoretically possible to re-create it using a mixture of logic gates, matched transistors, op-amps and analogue switches but it won't be cheap or easy.

I think your best bet it to find a more modern IC which can do the same job.
 

crutschow

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
I was thinking about making more or less PCB that would have similar functionality and properties.
I though that there must be some program that would help me to do this.
There is not likely any program to do this since the conversion is rarely, if ever, done today, and it's a very complex task. If it is done, the program would be proprietary to whoever is doing the reverse engineering.

You best bet is to find a different IC (or perhaps several ICs connected together) to perform the same functions.
 

Nigel Goodwin

Super Moderator
Most Helpful Member
Well I need CEM3310:
Curtis Electromusic Specialties CEM3310 Voltage Controlled Envelope Generator
View attachment 32699

I was thinking about making more or less PCB that would have similar functionality and properties.
I though that there must be some program that would help me to do this.
You would be wrong, but feel free to write one if you think it's possible? :D

You need to go back before the chip was made, plenty of synths didn't use such chips, it was designed as a cheap repacement for the more discrete versions.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest threads

EE World Online Articles

Loading
Top