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I drank too much I think

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Mikebits

Well-Known Member
I have pondered my existence on several occasions, and each time I come up with more questions and less answers. I would like to think of myself as someone who has an exceptional gift, and is one who could answer the questions that have plagued mankind for centuries.

Unfortunately I have discovered that I no more have answers than anyone else. How arrogant of me to even contemplate such issues as mankind's purpose or meaning.

In my moments where I felt closest to being enlightened, I have concluded that the answer may not have an answer, as man may be a mere happenstance. Mere chance of the right molecules combining at the right time and the right place may have been what started this thing called humankind.

Try for a moment if you will, to set aside your preconceived notions, and your innate fear of the unknown to consider that humankind was nothing more than pure chance, and we are nothing more than the inevitable result of molecular evolution.

Raised a Catholic, I find it difficult to even consider the things that have caused me such ponderous thoughts, but I cannot deny these thoughts, and leaving them in the untold secrets of my mind does not relieve me of these things that have wandered through my conscience thought. I therefore find my self with a dilemma where I question my existence, and the existence of a divine being.
It is hard for me to have faith in something that I have never seen and simply to believe because I have been taught to do so. I am no different than anyone else; the thought of a paradise, a nirvana after death is a much better idea than to simply die into nothingness.

Despite the unthinkable, the question remains as to our true existence, and to what will our end bring? We as a species are so beautiful in what we can accomplish; some of mankind's creations seem to be no less than divine as there splendor and beauty gives the sense of nothing beneath divinity. Could such creations present themselves to mere conglomerations of molecules? How can we not question this; however, as our own science begins to reveal truths that are testimonies of the untruths that have been passed down for so many generations.

History books bring mention of ancient religious beliefs as nothing more than myths conjured in the minds of primitive peoples seeking explanation for that which they did not understand. How then can we claim our religious beliefs are the divine truths that mankind has sought throughout its life long journey. What has our religion revealed where others have failed? Could our arrogance blind us into believing that indeed we are of divine creation? Perhaps, or maybe ancient scholars were gifted with divine insight, and this gift was lost millennia ago. Possibly this is our divine creators punishment to the world for its arrogance and depravity. I question that which was taught to me, and I was expected to believe without question.


So why then should I proceed with these thoughts, when most assuredly they will go unanswered, and I may face a doom of unimaginable suffering and sorrow? I am of the belief that it is the contemplation, and quest for answers and truths that have set mankind apart from the rest of the natural world. Again this causes contradiction in my thoughts as only a divine creature could pose such questions and speculates ones own existence.

The closer science brings truth of mans origin the further answers move from our grasp. Mankind is such a contradiction, on one hand he creates such beauty as seen in the Sistine Chapel, or heard in the majestic melodies of Mozart, yet he defiles the world with war, greed, lust, and unthinkable acts of cruelty. Could such a mélange be of divine origin? These are some of the perplexities that trouble my mind.

Amongst the peoples of grace, and thoughtful hearts, they are of mixed religious beliefs. Is one good soul pre-destined for an eternity of anguish contingent upon their geographical birthplace and religious culture? For me, I find this unthinkable that such a splendid conception would suffer a fate of eternal pain due to birth given circumstances. Does not a soul of good heart and compassion equally deserve to stand among the divine. I have no doubt that if the circumstances were reversed, a good Christian soul would be a good Islamic soul, yet one is doomed in the others eye.

How is this possible? Would a divine creator be so narrow in its thinking? Is the water of the Tigris purer than the rivers of continents from different lands? Is the soil divinely blessed in one land and not another? How were the divine children chosen, and why were the others condemned to be the unblessed? I am sure you now realize the quandary that puzzles my thoughts.


We are taught with irrefutable evidence that the earth originated some 4.5 billion years in some violent explosion of the cosmos. So vast, more so than we can conceive, yet we try to explain it all with science and instruments created by great thinkers. Once again I find myself mire of questions; could such a universe extend to such vastness that we could ever hope to explain such vastness? What would contain such a universe? Could this possibly be the divine origin? I find myself in contradiction again as I believe the instruments of the great, but question the things yet answered by the thinkers and the instruments.

As I sigh to myself in surrender, I remind myself of the many splendors that man creates the inexhaustible regions of the universe yet to be explored, and studied. With these thoughts I see many unanswered questions are to be known by future generations, perhaps many, many generations, but no doubt that they will be enlightened further. With these answers more questions will be posed, and mans plight will continue. Perhaps this is the essence of our being, and divinity is the understanding of all things. When mankind reaches the final question, man himself may become unified with divinity. It is my hope that this is true, but I will continue to pose these questions, and as my age grows further I may be able to give rest to such a restless mind.
 
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Mikebits

Well-Known Member
I wrote the above in a stupor, well maybe not a stupor, rather a event of preponderance. The above post is long winded to be sure, but if you read it, I would welcome any thoughts that you may have... :)
 
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smanches

New Member
Maybe you're starting to understand that it's not about the answers, but the questions themselves.

Enlightenment is not finding the answers to your questions, but realizing that the questions are neverending, and learning to live with it.
 

tcmtech

Banned
Most Helpful Member
I was an atheist but now I am not.
I have and still do on occasion in fits of frustration and question raise my head up and look to the sky and still scream out with every atom of my very existence 'WHAT THE F*** IS WRONG WITH YOU?' JUST BRING IT ON.:mad::mad: Then I feel better. :)

I was created in this way and I respect others that will question me in such a way and therefor if God dont like it he should move his finger and either bless me or curse me. But I am of the understanding we are all created in some way in the image of God so he too must also respect and understand my feelings at the time.

I have been blessed with uncommon skills and knowledge but yet cursed to dwell with everyone else on this planet who continually gets in my way and prevents me from doing greater things with that skill and knowledge I have been blessed with. :(

It all seems like a sick joke more often than not. And some days it makes atheism seem like a more realistic approach to life but it just cant explain the things I have seen that made me change my mind in the first place.

My 20 cents (2 cents adjusted for tax and clergy fees):)
 

MrAl

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
Hi,

We all think about that stuff at one time or another, and once we start thinking
about it we usually find ourselves drifting back to think about it again.

The thing i find most interesting i think is that the more science understands
about the universe the more likely it seems to explain that a God exists.
We have such limited knowledge, and with the general acceptance of other
Euclidean dimensions, none of which we can see into, it's not hard to imagine
a God as a fourth dimensional being, able to see as a fourth dimensional being,
which would give him untold insight into our measly 3d-ish world, and control
over things in and out of our 3d-ish existence.
It is so interesting too that the Christian bible talks about a time of creation,
where before that there was nothing but void, then suddenly there was
everything...perhaps the big bang?

Soon the LHC may prove the existence of other dimensions, which would
prove that there could be beings that live in a world that is even too hard
for us 3d'ers to imagine, let alone get to. We can not assume that we are
the most advanced of any living thing that ever existed that's for sure.

Also, space time seems to suggest that time is something that does not really
evolve like we seem to experience, but is something that always exists as
a whole. The second yesterday at 12 noon when we took a bite of that ham
sandwich did not pass by, instead it still exists. The second tomorrow when we
take a stroll down the street exits already. This would give someone that had
the ability to see all these 'events' at once the ability to know in advance
what choices everyone made. Could this be the basis for predestination?

You are right though...it seems like the more questions that are asked the
more questions that come up. Could it be because the space of intelligence
is unlimited, while the space of the universe (as we know it) is?
After all, intelligence can come in the form of multiple people, each holding a
certain fraction of it, and still more intelligent information not even talked about
yet, while the universe (again as we know it) is finite. To prove this, the
number of valid chess positions possible (following the rules for the board game)
is larger than the number of atoms in the universe. This immediately says that
we have more questions then we have matter in which to store them in.
If we then go subatomic, we still have some finite limit that stands in the way
still. The question then becomes (yeah, another question he he), do we have
so many questions that it would take more than the number of subatomic
particles to store them? This is just very hard to answer, especially with the
ongoing research in physics, where we dont know for sure yet what is the smallest
thing we can ever find.
 
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Triode

Active Member
I find the problem of weather or not god exists trivial, and I mean that in the technical sense. If g is a variable that has no definition, no known value, and no equation, than what does the equation t = g or t != G tell us? It is trivial. If you define god to mean that which is unknown that made the universe, then yes, god exists. As you get more specific it gets less likely.

The universe has rules, math and physics are at the root of them and the permutations of those rules create other larger rules, chemistry, biology, neurology, psychology, sociology. Just as Binary underlies assembly, which underlies higher level languages. We have a hard time beliving that we work that way, just as you (or maybe someone less well versed in electronics) has a hard time looking at their computer screen and truely beliving that underneath it all is 0s and 1s, flip flops on gate 1 or gate 2, building complex rules which build other rules, which eventually make Battlefiled 1942 apear on your screen and speakers. Could these rules which make the universe what it is not be called God's personality?

So again, its trivial, like x=x, god is what is. If there is nothing anything like the biblical god then the universe itself is god, or something in the rules we havent discovered yet is. What it comes down to is that we cant know, those who claim to know are in my opinion just beliving because they want to, and thats ok. I agree with smatches "Enlightenment is not finding the answers to your questions, but realizing that the questions are neverending, and learning to live with it." The universe is insanely complex, in that if you got a glimpse of its true complexity you would go insane. It is foolish to ignore observed relaity to fit existing belifes, but the alternative for a religeous person is to redifne their understanding of god to fit observed reality. My question is, why define something at all if you can't possibly do it right? Why even call it god? There is something more than we know to the universe, we can all agree on that, and none of us know what it is.
 
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dknguyen

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
Triode, I think somewhat the same way. But more along the lines of if there is a god, he left us to your own devices. Because honestly...we get whatever is coming to us. We're bad enough as it is, let alone with the absolute assurance that someone is holding our hand and is gonna save our collective ass. Honestly? I wouldn't have it any other way (except that individual asses also get what's coming to them, which doesn't always happen).
 
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killivolt

Well-Known Member
To be self aware does not allow Mankind to make judgements of the Universes Origin.

To have some proof of life that can understand it's own circumstances and gravity of it's existence will only allow those creatures to pre-define the nature of it's ongoing existence and possible future.

Far to many times in history the mankind or the animal "I call mankind" concludes on evidentiary support as a fact when in fact later that judgment becomes known as myth or concludes as un-known origin or worse completely false.

To pre-conceive anything above ones own self awareness at this juncture in time on the planet would be like saying the end of the world will be June 9th at 2:00pm today here ye here ye. Because it will not happen and will be proven false.

The world is flat, Man will never fly.

Niche said God is Dead. God said Niche is Dead.

Even a Scientist will tell you if not Motivated by fear that Chaos is not God and is not the full explanation of life and the Universe they have not concluded it as of yet to do so would not be scientific.

So which is it. The Chicken or the Egg.

Most will tell you the Egg. Do we dumb our selfs down backing ourselves in a corner to be indoctrinated by Religion or Darwinians. Free thinking should be the norm and should open the doors each day with a fresh set of goals and purpose and stop defining existence and begin to live it.


kv:)
 

smanches

New Member
I think of God like The Force. As soon as you try to explain his existence, the movie goes to crap. :p
 

dknguyen

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. Man destroys god. Man creates dinosaurs.

It is hard for me to have faith in something that I have never seen and simply to believe because I have been taught to do so. I am no different than anyone else; the thought of a paradise, a nirvana after death is a much better idea than to simply die into nothingness.
What's so bad about nothingness? Everyone seems to remember paradise but then forgets about eternal damnation. Sure, it might mean that people who "get away with it" end up paying, but think about this for a second: people often get away with things because everyone else turns a blind eye. It seems to give an excuse to not take action or responsibility and not feel bad about it. The only reason it's so easy to ignore is the offender's responsibility is far overshadow-ing (and it should be).

For the record, it seems most people think they're gonna end up in paradise and the more extreme they are the more they seem to think that. It's ironic that the person who knows they're going to end up in hell is probably more honest than the person who knows they're gonna end up in heaven.
 
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Triode

Active Member
I had the same problem when I stopped believing in an afterlife. The thought of ceasing to exist was very depressing, even distressing. But when you think about it, you would cease to exist either way. Are you the same person you were when you were 16? If you lived to be 300 would you be who you are now? It's not so negative that in 300 years someone new will be seeing the world, instead of a different person who used to be who you are now. A new person who expeiriences wonder at the things you have gotten used to can live instead, and they can read of your ideas.
 

dknguyen

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
I had the same problem when I stopped believing in an afterlife. The thought of ceasing to exist was very depressing, even distressing. But when you think about it, you would cease to exist either way. Are you the same person you were when you were 16? If you lived to be 300 would you be who you are now? It's not so negative that in 300 years someone new will be seeing the world, instead of a different person who used to be who you are now. A new person who expeiriences wonder at the things you have gotten used to can live instead, and they can read of your ideas.
That reminds me of the hypothetical situtation a psychologist once proposed:

What would you prefer?
-Someone clone you and your memories and torture your clone
-Or someone wipe your memory and torture you?
 
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mramos1

Active Member
I was an atheist but now I am not.
I have and still do on occasion in fits of frustration and question raise my head up and look to the sky and still scream out with every atom of my very existence 'WHAT THE F*** IS WRONG WITH YOU?' JUST BRING IT ON.:mad::mad: Then I feel better. :)

I was created in this way and I respect others that will question me in such a way and therefor if God dont like it he should move his finger and either bless me or curse me. But I am of the understanding we are all created in some way in the image of God so he too must also respect and understand my feelings at the time.

I have been blessed with uncommon skills and knowledge but yet cursed to dwell with everyone else on this planet who continually gets in my way and prevents me from doing greater things with that skill and knowledge I have been blessed with. :(

It all seems like a sick joke more often than not. And some days it makes atheism seem like a more realistic approach to life but it just cant explain the things I have seen that made me change my mind in the first place.

My 20 cents (2 cents adjusted for tax and clergy fees):)
I was never an atheist, but what you wrote did put a smile back on my face.

I feel I walk in the same shoes. A couple days off helps a little :)
Little bit of Mikebits stuff and I will be all good.
 

breadboardguy

New Member
The human is at a such conscious and intelligence level that he idealize a god and he puts himself as a creation of him. I rather think that WE are divine, we are the one on a a billion of billion of possibilities on such numberous planets. We create such amazing things that cant be found anywhere exept on earth. If the earth was just a little different in geography, the monkey would'nt had started to walk on 2 legs and to devellop tools and intellectual talents. Would it be just because we are on two legs that we have a soul? When we think of it, all terra inhabitants are the same from the same ancestor, we all come from a liquid resting in some hot water near a volcano, we all have 2 eyes, a brain and 4 legs.We can even transfer pork organs to man. Exept some small evolution modification and dna caracteristics, the human is the same then a dog.

If we look at what we are, we are a very big microcontroller that does not work with boolean logic and ALU, but neurones that react to some small electric current signals.

What would be, is to stop asking question of how is the world, because we can only perceive it but a small window, and we cant realize why space is so big because it was never mandatory for survival, and maybe never ever some sort of intelligence is supposed to understand evrything.

People dont get that we very probably are the most intelligent race in the whole galaxy at the moment

Man always want to know why, but why? I think that if we want to get why we perceive, why we feel and the concept of being, we absolutly have to understand the brain, how all the nerves are connected and in what sort of logic to know evrything, the answer to search is not how it works, but why and how we perceive it that way.



Understanding why do we understand would be pretty cool...
 
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doubleM

New Member
im in a similar dilemma. i was raised in church, taught the bible, my whole family is protestant. yes i still believe in God, but things have happened to me in the past few years that make me question certain things.

for example, its hard for me to swallow the idea of an afterlife for eternity...in heaven or in hell. its hard to swallow the fact that God would allow someone, who never knew of him or never had a choice, to be sent to hell. i just cant take thinking, well this guy died....he didnt live like we think he should have, so now hes in hell. or youll hear people preach "turn or burn!youre goin to hell. ".... nobody wants to hear that. things like this make you question what you were taught your whole life.



anyway, i think there is more to the universe than what we know. im tired of hearing people say "if you dont believe like we believe youre absurd." dogmatic, narrowminded, ignorant bs. from atheists, evolutionists, scientists, christians and theologians alike. the hypocrisy of humankind is unbelievable. everyone believes a little different.
the accepted theory of our origin today by modern scientists is evolution. im not saying thats right or wrong...im not a scientist. one day it may be proven completely. or one day it may be proven wrong and something else could take its place. but even if it is proven, does that totally mean God doesnt exist?
i personally find it easier to believe in a higher power who created the universe and set laws in order, than to believe everthing, all of this, came by an accident, by chance. its too complex to be by chance.
i do not believe order cannot come from disorder.
but i am all for science, technology, exploration and finding out where we come from....or even if we are alone in the universe. no more ignorance and fear. and perhaps mankind is evolving in the fact that we better ourselves and change. thats the only evolution that should matter.
 
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breadboardguy

New Member
i personally find it easier to believe in a higher power who created the universe and set laws in order, than to believe everthing, all of this, came by an accident, by chance. its too complex to be by chance.
I remember a great thinker that was talking about luck and unprobable things that happens. (If it happened like that) the right molecule assembly at the right time is unprobable but its not luck if it happens, because it has to happen on such huge time and possibilities. Its chance that where are born in this galaxy, but it was a fatality that it was to happen somewhere with that much trial and error. We won the lottery after thousands of try in some sort.

I am not against the principle of god by respect for others choices, but for me, if god exists, he should had told me. He didn't so i cant be shure to believe in anubis or toth right now.
 
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