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Green energy, in a warmer climate, will it handle the extreme weather?

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HarveyH42

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I was working on getting some solar panels ready to mount on the roof. It was kind of breezy, and a little cold, and started wondering about the prophetic extreme weather, predicted for us in the near future (doesn't look we'll be acting quite as fast, as some insist). I've been trying to mount my panels, where they aren't like to get shattered from flying debris, and anchoring them well, since we already get some extreme wind.

But I got to thinking, how well are solar panels and wind generators going to hold up in our new climate. Solar panels don't like hot, wind generators probably won't do well in hurricane force winds. Would also suspect a lot of cloud days, as the warmer temperatures are likely to increase water vapor, and clouds.

Of course, the weather extremes are conjecture, may or may not be mixed in to motivate the masses. I did decide to play it safe, and put off climbing the ladder, carrying the panels during gusty winds, for another day. Just not a big enough rush, to take the risk. Cracked two ribs last time I got knocked off a ladder (tree limb), not looking to go through that again.

I won't debate AGW, or even whether or not the climate is warming. I missed the outcome of the last thread, must have been bad, though, since it was completely removed, not just locked. Will probably never know who threw the final stone.

I'm going solar, and potential hurricanes are bad enough around here. The panels I already have on the roof, have survived so far, but wondering how effective they are likely to be over the next decade or so, as things heat up. Extremely hot days, means less efficient, cloudy days are even worse. Seems likely, that they are going to turn out less product than planned, but better than nothing at all. This winter in Florida has been the strangest by far, and can't help but wonder what other unusual weather in store for us this year.

Let make this clear, this is not about AGW, CO2, or whether or not mankind will succeed in stopping Climate Change, not looking to continue debating, we've beat that poor dead horse enough.

The climate is changing, whether or not it will be extreme, like in that movie, is anybodies guess, but we are heading into greener energy sources, and a climate change. I just want to explore how that is going to work out, if things do get rough, whether they actually do or not. It's better to prepare. I've got 8 panels to get up on the roof, bolt down, and get wired in, and hope to continue until I get enough to cover most of my needs. Will eventually go with solar heated water, which I can hope will be useful for winter heat as well (if this cold trend continues). Summers, I did fine with fans, first 5 years in this house, before installing central AC/heating. Figure if I lose the grid, I'll still be okay.
 
Welcome to the new religion. :D
**broken link removed**

Sorry, couldn't resist.:D

It depends on how hot/windy it is where you live?

Here in the UK wind power is going to be really big but believe it or not many environmentalists are trying to block wind turbine developments. I'm all for finding sustainable energy sources but I hate it when whiny greenies moan about fossil fuels so we find an alternative and complain about that too.

It it's really hot absorption cooling can be used instead of air-conditioning. It works like a gas or paraffin powered fridge except heat from the sun is used instead. This is obviously more efficient at higher temperatures. For electricity there's a solar furnace which works in the same manner as a traditional coal power station except again the sun's heat is being used rather than coal. For dry countries I'm sure it's possible that a solar furnace can also double as a desalination plant to provide fresh drinking water.

I suppose photovoltaic cells could be used on the tops of mountains where it's really cooler as well as sunny but there might be a problem with too much of a problem with snow in winter as well as it being impractical in such a remote location.
 
The problem I see with all the existing forms of renewable energy is that it is not a "on demand" system. It has to be stored in batteries, and until they come up with a way around that I won't have it.

As far as I know there has been no studies on the impact of storage battery use. The use of lead is worse than greenhouse gases. and all the other battery technology use other heavy metal/chemical materials. The existing amount is really just a drop in the bucket of whats going to come in the future, is it going to be any better than petroleum?

Just like Electric cars, the electric has to be generated some where for them. Still producing greenhouse gas. Plus what about the danger in a wreck breaking a battery?

Just my dumb thoughts.
 
Quote HarveyH42 "I won't debate AGW, or even whether or not the climate is warming. I missed the outcome of the last thread, must have been bad, though, since it was completely removed, not just locked. Will probably never know who threw the final stone. "

The same one that cast the first stone:(
 
Most of the time (except this winter), daytime its in the 90s. We get a fair amount of rain, but usually comes down fast and furious, the sunny again. Use to get radical thunderstorms, almost weekly during the rainy season (hurricane season), but has been much the past few years. Hardly any tornadoes any more.

Nice picture, will have grab a copy for my Al Gore collection... Doesn't matter if the warming trend is natural, or man-made, it seems to be mostly real. Not really the point, things change, and we have time to prepare and plan ahead. Just don't figure fighting it, will have much effect in my short lifetime (50+ years left), but do expect to have to deal with a warmer climate for a couple decades.

Mostly, I feel the push to green energy, although I started a while back, before the politics. Mostly, I wanted some back up power, just in case we lost power during a hurricane, and want enough for light and and small appliances until they got it fixed. Gas generators require use and maintenance, best kept outdoors (rust), and of course requires fuel, and refueling.

Was just thinking about higher temperatures, means lower production from solar panels, and may not be the best choice. Wondering if others have taken this into account. Obviously fossil fuels will be quite expensive before long, mostly I suppose, to make alternatives more cost effective, rather than improving cost vs efficiency, or improving the technology. Have we really become so lazy?
 
Just like Electric cars, the electric has to be generated some where for them. Still producing greenhouse gas.

There are MANY ways too create plenty of electricity without producing ANY emissions.

But I agree that what we need most is better storage mediums. What is the efficiency of hydrolyzing water and storing the hydrogen?
 
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The problem I see with all the existing forms of renewable energy is that it is not a "on demand" system. It has to be stored in batteries, and until they come up with a way around that I won't have it.

As far as I know there has been no studies on the impact of storage battery use. The use of lead is worse than greenhouse gases. and all the other battery technology use other heavy metal/chemical materials. The existing amount is really just a drop in the bucket of whats going to come in the future, is it going to be any better than petroleum?

Just like Electric cars, the electric has to be generated some where for them. Still producing greenhouse gas. Plus what about the danger in a wreck breaking a battery?

Just my dumb thoughts.

Forgot all about the batteries, and we spent decades cleaning up the paint and gasoline. I don't know if they can extract lead from lead sulfate easy or economically. Lead is a very common resource, not sure if reclaiming it would be attractive. I've cracked a few car battery for lead to cast, melting wasn't very productive, considering the labor. Found tire weights a good source for cheap lead. Use to make pewter figurines. Wonder if this would be a good time to buy stock in lead?

Have to agree we have some way to go, before carbon string. But unfortunately, the policy makers are in a rush, and we are going to be left a little short for a while, struggling to make up the difference.
 
You must be living in the stone age:


Lead-acid batteries have been leaders in the recycling industry for more than ten years, with more lead from spent batteries having been recycled than any other consumer product. More than ninety percent of battery lead is recycled, versus 35 percent of glass containers, 62.5 percent of aluminum cans, and 69 percent of newspapers. The black color of many of these batteries demonstrates their ability to be recycled as this black plastic is the result of the recycling process, when many different-colored battery cases are broken into small pieces and melted together.

Lead-Acid Batteries Still Top the Nation’s Recycling List” Lead-acid battery the nation’s most highly recycled consumer product.

Chicago, Ill. (June 20, 2005) -- The lead-acid battery industry, with help from consumers and retailers, recycled 99.2 percent of used battery lead (or 11.7 billion pounds of lead) from 1999 to 2003, according to a new report issued today by Battery Council International (BCI) the industry’s trade association. The data confirm that the lead-acid battery remains the nation’s most highly recycled consumer product.

“This high recycling rate for battery lead is the result of a successful collaboration among members of the battery industry, retailers and consumers,” said Randy Hart, President of BCI. “It proves that a workable infrastructure helps boost consumers’ participation in recycling.”

The lead-acid battery industry, which is the country’s largest user of lead, has been recycling and reclaiming lead from its used products for nearly 75 years. Battery Council International, a not-for-profit organization that represents the international lead-acid battery manufacturing and recycling industry, has tracked the lead recycling rate from used automotive, truck, motorcycle, marine, garden tractor, industrial and other lead-acid batteries since 1987.

“The lead-acid battery recycling structure has been proven to be efficient and highly successful, and no other battery chemistry comes near the recycling rate of lead-acid batteries,” said Mr. Hart. The recycling rate of battery lead has also consistently ranked higher than other recyclable commodities. The U.S. EPA lists 2003 recycling rates of other materials:

Steel Cans: 60.0%
Yard Trimmings: 56.3%
Paper and Paperboard: 48.1%
Aluminum Beer and Soft Drink Cans: 43.9%
Tires: 35.6%
Plastic Milk Bottles: 31.9%
Plastic Soft Drink Containers: 25.2%
Glass Containers: 22.0%
Along with the lead and plastic from used batteries, lead-acid battery recyclers also reclaim scrap lead from the production process. In a continuous cycle, the battery industry reclaims and reuses lead and plastic for use in new batteries, keeping these materials out of the waste stream. “Lead-acid battery recycling in the U.S. was one of the most significant environmental success stories of the 20th century and the trend continues into the 21st century,” said Mr. Hart.

The Battery Council International has been instrumental in promoting the enactment of lead-acid battery recycling requirements that are the law in 43 U.S. states. Today, the vast majority of U.S. retailers and auto parts stores collect used batteries from consumers in compliance with state recycling laws.

**broken link removed**
 
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There are MANY ways too create plenty of electricity without producing ANY emissions.

But I agree that what we need most is better storage mediums. What is the efficiency of hydrolyzing water and storing the hydrogen?

OH NO, HHO! Pretty sure it takes more energy to separate water and pressurizing for storage, than you get back from burning it. But it would be much cleaner than lead/acid batteries, likely about the same risks involved.

Use to think HHO could be quite economical if you lived near a river or stream, since you'd have plenty of water, and mechanical energy to both generate electricity to split the molecules, and run a compressor to store the gas. Any surplus could be released or burned off. You could just drive up and fill your tank as needed, the fuel is replenished automatically, and at no further cost, other than maintenance.
 
While the rest of the country tries to figure out how to implement and and then stop the implementation of any new form of power my state is putting in wind farms as fast as we can get the generators brought here. :)
We are also drilling oil wells as fast as we can too! Plans are to likely have another oil refinery or two in the next ten years or so. :D

So dont worry we got your back like it or not being we have a general population of people who dont care about global warming and if anything we sort of like the preview we have had so far if the last ten years represent what is yet to come! :D

As far as mass electrical energy storage system its a well know concept that pumped water storage gives the biggest capacity for the least total investment. All that is needed is a reasonable elevation change (200 feet or more) within a practical working distance and two reservoirs. Much of the mountainous ares are more than capable of that elevation change and also provide numerous natural valleys and draws that can serve as the reservoirs as well. :)

The battery or similar chemical based storage systems are still too expensive and do not economically scale up to the city and regional capacity levels any where close to what a pumped water system is capable of which when designed right can easily handle 10's to 100's of GWH capacity levels with high working efficiency. It is also very cheap in overall operational and maintenance costs plus still allows for the multi use functionality of the storage media itself. :)
 
I don't know about solar panels not liking hot ?

They mount thousands of them in the desert because the sun is visible most of the time.
I would imagine that it gets hot there, so there must not be a big problem with heat.
 
Yeah that was baloney. From what I can remember of my solid-state physics, heat would make them work a little better, as it raises the energy of valence electrons. If I get really energetic, I'll pull out my old textbooks and verify that. I probably won't get that energetic though :)
 
While the rest of the country tries to figure out how to implement and and then stop the implementation of any new form of power my state is putting in wind farms as fast as we can get the generators brought here. :)
We are also drilling oil wells as fast as we can too! Plans are to likely have another oil refinery or two in the next ten years or so. :D

So dont worry we got your back like it or not being we have a general population of people who dont care about global warming and if anything we sort of like the preview we have had so far if the last ten years represent what is yet to come! :D

As far as mass electrical energy storage system its a well know concept that pumped water storage gives the biggest capacity for the least total investment. All that is needed is a reasonable elevation change (200 feet or more) within a practical working distance and two reservoirs. Much of the mountainous ares are more than capable of that elevation change and also provide numerous natural valleys and draws that can serve as the reservoirs as well. :)

The battery or similar chemical based storage systems are still too expensive and do not economically scale up to the city and regional capacity levels any where close to what a pumped water system is capable of which when designed right can easily handle 10's to 100's of GWH capacity levels with high working efficiency. It is also very cheap in overall operational and maintenance costs plus still allows for the multi use functionality of the storage media itself. :)

Unfortunately, Florida is much too flat (least around here). I'm not concerned about the climate, don't think it'll be a bad thing after all, and still a long way off according to the models. The more immediate threat, is the economic impact of higher cost of fossil fuel usage. The logic seems to be that by raise the energy costs for carbon emitting production, above greener alternatives, people will moved to the more affordable energy options, which are barely affordable as is. It would be better for most everyone, if alternative energy cost were brought down, but where's the profit in that, besides the urgency to cut carbon emissions.

My plan is to have so sort of power available, either to offset the higher prices, or to fill in if it comes to rationing or brown-outs (doubt the current grid will be as reliable with higher production costs, and emission limits.

Carbon caps are a bummer, landfills have mountains of perfectly burnable tires, which give off a lot of heat, and keep burning for quite a while. We could be using those for years, except for the black smoke. Used motor oil starts them up good too. Unfortunately, my tire burning days are pretty well over for a while. Both my truck, and SUV are dead, and got a 2000 Grand Prix GT as a replacement. Not exactly an econo-car 3.8 liter 6-cylinder, but not as big as the Explorer, engine about the same. Definitely not for hauling tires home in.
 
There is definitely degradation to output with heat. I've been trying to find a curve, but have been busy. I'll post one when I find it.

EDIT: Looks like current goes up just a bit, but voltage drops quite a lot. You can find graphs on the datasheets. Here's one from BP for a 215W panel.

**broken link removed**
 
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Here are a number of places still using tires as a fuel source and some that have stopped for numerous reasons. Apparently if you are in the right location and have the right permits its still not a problem. :)

Light em' up!:D

**broken link removed**

There are also numerous patents on designs for tire fuel based heating systems that are easy to find on line as well. ;)
 
Yeah that was baloney. From what I can remember of my solid-state physics, heat would make them work a little better, as it raises the energy of valence electrons. If I get really energetic, I'll pull out my old textbooks and verify that. I probably won't get that energetic though :)
Don't higher temperatures cause the forward voltage of a diode to drop which will lower the efficiency?
 
What? It lowers the barrier voltage, meaning more current can flow for the same terminal voltage.
 
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