Getting help.

Recently while attempting to help a member I became annoyed that he was often slow to answer. After a while he mentioned that he was doing 10 things at once.

Suggestion: If someone is willing to spend their time helping you, give them 100% of your attention. Or as close to that as is possible. It is disrespectful of the helper not to do so. Shut down your other chats, close the door, do whatever it takes to minimize the distractions.

When asking for help in chat do not ask for help from every person that enters the chat room. That is annoying. Start a thread on ETO instead.

If you do not have time to stay online do not expect anyone to email you an answer.

When you ask for help on the forum or in chat be specific about what hardware you have. At best the quality of any answers depends on the quality of the information provided in the question.

If the person attempting to help you is going down the wrong road it is because you are expecting him to read your mind.

When you have a problem something must be wrong. After you check the obvious suspects, you need to check everything, even the parts that you think are good. Countless hours have been wasted because the member with the problem refused to do so.

Some people refuse to read the datasheets. They can be rather detailed and technical but this is a detailed and technical area. Tuff it out and learn to understand them. Over time it becomes easier. If you find them impossible to understand there is a good chance you need to go back to blinking LEDs.

+1, 3v0, and more if I could.

Lately I have come across a lot of members who did this sort of thing, and it has really started to get annoying. What really bugs me are the members who come to chat and ask for help, maybe 5 or 6 members explain in great detail how to fix it, and then the member comes back maybe 2 hours later and asks the same question! It seems that about 75% of the new members I meet here on the forum aren't willing to listen or learn. All they do is demand answers, and refuse to take advice. I'm sure the remaining 25% knows who they are, and I thank them for their politeness.

Der Strom

Some people have a different definition of "help" than the rest of the world.

To "help" is to teach the skill itself...not to just up and give answers to the homework.

If you're too lazy to pull up a data sheet, then I'm too lazy to teach you.

If you don't understand the data sheets, let me know what you don't understand and I will do my best to help you understand it.

Patience is key. You're not going to learn this skill overnight. Accept that and deal with it. You're only human after all. If you cannot be patient, you probably need to consider a different hobby.

If you have the wrong parts for the job, I refuse to help you "jury rig" your project to "just make it work". If you're gonna constantly whine about ordering the wrong parts and complain about having to spend another $20 to order the correct parts for the application, you definitely need to consider a different hobby.

In addition to 3's post regarding the multitasking while trying to teach...this sends the message that you expect the world to conform to you and your ways and this type of behavior is reminiscent of a self centered spoiled rotten kid. It is flat out rude and disrespectful. If you're going to behave that way, good luck finding someone to mentor you.

Hear, hear! Well said 3V0 et al.

Agree with everything above in principle, just on a flip side of the coin, to be devils advocate perhaps, I've actually been put off in the past from asking for help or advice, even after checking the basics because of individuals who see themselves as experts, who 'judge' your question as not to be worthy of their time. Not only do they not help, but they insist on answering to make sure you know of their reluctance to help.

You can criticise people for asking simple questions all you want, just bear in mind that it's relative - a college student might ask a seemingly daft question to an experienced lecturer, but in the eyes of a physicist the lecturer might himself be full of crap. If we insist on judging by our own standards you'll never get the sort of mutual 'help me to help you' environment that i get the impression is wanted here?

Sorry to go against the grain, but I have found myself in unpleasant situations with people simply because I didn't have their level of experience or knowledge, in fact my own experiences led me to being attacked personally, all for asking a question that was beneath one particular 'well valued' member.

Don't want to be a spanner in the works, i've received good quality advice from a lot of members here in the past, and I'd like to think people have never 'despaired' or felt i've not myself given enough info with a question (I normally give a schematic/code listing along with a list of what ive tried to do so far to solve the problem), but I can't help but feel this issue isn't a one sided matter bearing in mind I now refrain from asking questions almost the point of not posting anymore in case i'll be targeted for making a simple query.


In all fairness my experience was probably a one off, but it's not something you want in a supportive environment ever.

That said, I do agree people have a responsibility to help people who ARE helping you, and if someone isn't giving you the time you're prepared to give them, then tell them. It's fair.

Dakta said:

Agree with everything above in principle, just on a flip side of the coin, to be devils advocate perhaps, I've actually been put off in the past from asking for help or advice, even after checking the basics because of individuals who see themselves as experts, who 'judge' your question as not to be worthy of their time. Not only do they not help, but they insist on answering to make sure you know of their reluctance to help.

You can criticise people for asking simple questions all you want, just bear in mind that it's relative - a college student might ask a seemingly daft question to an experienced lecturer, but in the eyes of a physicist the lecturer might himself be full of crap. If we insist on judging by our own standards you'll never get the sort of mutual 'help me to help you' environment that i get the impression is wanted here?

Sorry to go against the grain, but I have found myself in unpleasant situations with people simply because I didn't have their level of experience or knowledge, in fact my own experiences led me to being attacked racially, all for asking a question that was beneath one particular 'well valued' member.

Don't want to be a spanner in the works, i've received good quality advice from a lot of members here in the past, and I'd like to think people have never 'despaired' or felt i've not myself given enough info with a question (I normally give a schematic/code listing along with a list of what ive tried to do so far to solve the problem), but I can't help but feel this issue isn't a one sided matter bearing in mind I get the impression i'll be targeted for making a simple query.


In all fairness my experience was probably a one off, but it's not something you want in a supportive environment ever.

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I think this thread was more in regards to those who are too lazy to seek the information for themselves and would rather just have us give them the answers. I personally addressed an issue where the OP was having an issue with the PORTB weak internal pull ups on a PIC, and every question he had could've been answered had the OP simply had taken a few minutes to look in the Port I/O section of the data sheet.

But for some reason, some people are either too lazy to do that or are too afraid of admitting that they have a difficult time with the data sheets. And the second we try to get them to look at the datasheet, they get on a defensive over the matter.

The main goal of ETO is to help others LEARN what it is that they're doing. By just up and giving them the answers, they learn nothing. However, by TEACHING them the concepts and showing them the resources to use which contain the information they seek, they will eventually be able to answer their own questions. But some just want easy answers. They just wanna make the thing work and think that because we have knowledge that they don't have that we should somehow feel obligated to help them. My only question to that is...why get involved with a hobby if you have no desire to actually know anything about it?

Moral of the story is...if you're too lazy to learn then we're too lazy to teach.

"I think this thread was more in regards to those who are too lazy to seek the information for themselves "

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I know. I just want to highlight the fact that sometimes there's people deciding that other people are too lazy to look for the information, who, to make my point very breif, are blatantly wrong with their judgement.

Dakta said:

I know. I just want to highlight the fact that sometimes there's people deciding that other people are too lazy to look for the information, who, to make my point very breif, are blatantly wrong with their judgement.

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Touchy subject..... I find that due to the world wide audience this forum attracts... Some times the questions!!! and responses... aren't quite what we are used to... I mean it must be difficult to ask a question.... in English... when English isn't your first language...

It can sometimes come across as arrogant, when that is far from the intention. I try to take it all in good faith.... If someone is genuinely lazy.... It will show itself..

Just my take....

No one is entitled to help.

Dakta I started this thread so that people could be more successful in getting help, and make it less painful for the people providing it. They are two faces of the same coin.

I do not know of any of the 'gods' here who feels they are too good to help. But it is their choice as to when and who gets helped. It is a gift given to the people following in their footsteps. No one has the right to demand help. No one is entitled to help.

Having said that you need to know that getting help is a lot like fishing. If you use the wrong bait or stink the place up you will not have any luck. Some days the fish are just not biting.

Dang I was wrong all alone I figured a forum was for showing off your skills to people not as knowledgeable.

But it dose help them knowledgeable people if you show them what your trying to do.

But the bottom line this is a forum there going to be I want this now people there going to be know it all's and them I think you should know that by now.

Like 3v0 said you get more with better bait show what you done and your trying and you'll get better help and the op need to show he or she is happy to get help Not bite back .

No one is entitled to help.

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I don't see how that comes into anything tbh, that isn't the point I'm raising.

The point I'm raising is that there are people (and yes they are) who upon deciding they aren't going to help then make a point of making it obvious. They turn their decision to not help into some tool they can criticise people with. I think it's a minority of situations, but ive seen it happen.

Since this thread is dealing with the opposite side of the issue, just thought I'd raise that anywho, because it most certainly is another (true) aspect.

Don't want it to become a debate, but what I've said. it's fact. Nobody is making any arguement about people's obligations to assist, but if you decide not to help, then stay out of the thread?

Like I said, I know there are people out there who want solutions for no effort, I'm not saying you don't have a point, but I definitely do too.

Anywho, i'll leave you to it before this whips up into a storm

Agree with everything above in principle, just on a flip side of the coin, to be devils advocate perhaps, I've actually been put off in the past from asking for help or advice, even after checking the basics because of individuals who see themselves as experts, who 'judge' your question as not to be worthy of their time. Not only do they not help, but they insist on answering to make sure you know of their reluctance to help.

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hi dakta,
I agree with all the points covered by 3v0's opening post.

You have also raised the point valid point about members who do not want to help, but cannot resist criticising the OP's question and also saying they will not help.

If a member feels he doesn't consider the OP's question worthwhile he should either ignore the post or ask the OP for more details.

E.

Can of worms ?

Dakta you have raised an interesting point. We have a firm rule against insulting other members.

We take a very strong approach to abuse or insults toward other members. It doesn't matter what they (*the insulted) say or do, do not call other members names or make insulting comments.

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*added by 3v0

Perhaps we need to take a stronger stand. BUT there is no doubt in my mind that the moderators will be labeled as bullies or Nazis for doing so.

If we do this every person seeking help needs to understand that helpers have the right to say I will not help you, or I am done helping you, without being asked for a reason.

Why? Because the insults are often a result of "why won't you help me". It is hard to not respond with an insult when the truth is insulting! Especially when badgered. As I said earlier no one has the right to demand help.

Is this the right path or a can of worms ?

3v0 said:

Recently while attempting to help a member I became annoyed that he was often slow to answer. After a while he mentioned that he was doing 10 things at once.

Suggestion: If someone is willing to spend their time helping you, give them 100% of your attention. Or as close to that as is possible. It is disrespectful of the helper not to do so. Shut down your other chats, close the door, do whatever it takes to minimize the distractions.

If you do not have time to stay online do not expect anyone to email you an answer.

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When I read this I thought to myself "I hope I have not been thought guilty of this". When I ask a question, I watch for an answer continuosly for a short while, then less often if nothing shows up. And it may be that we need to go to work or go to bed. Members of this forum live in many different time zones, so not all are online at the same time.

SO, lack of a comeback may not be due to disrespect. Patience by anyone is an admirable trait!

AGCB said:

And it may be that we need to go to work or go to bed.

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Instead of leaving the person helping you can say:

Thanks for the help I need to go to bed.
Wife interrupt.
That is about all I can absorb for now. bye
etc

Anything but just walking away leaving the other person waiting for a reply.

3v0 said:

Instead of leaving the person helping you can say:

Thanks for the help I need to go to bed.
Wife interrupt.
That is about all I can absorb for now. bye
etc

Anything but just walking away leaving the other person waiting for a reply.

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I agree and I for one will try to do that in the future.

Thanks 3V0

Dakta said:

Like I said, I know there are people out there who want solutions for no effort, I'm not saying you don't have a point, but I definitely do too.

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My electronics instructor in High School told the class on the first day:

"You will get out of this what you put into it."

His class was good enough that I coasted thru most of my first year in College. I know that at least half of the people in my High School class
never went on to do work in their field, but for myself it got me a part time electronics job that paid for my college, and helped me land jobs to keep employed.

Sometimes you have to print out data sheets and read them more than once to grasp the info you need, Google helps also but it too needs the right info to search for what you are looking for.

binzer said:

Sometimes you have to print out data sheets and read them more than once to grasp the info you need, Google helps also but it too needs the right info to search for what you are looking for.

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Usually if I am posting up a question or asking it in the chat and it's a question that pertains to info I either could not find via Google'ing it or incorrect info I found via Google'ing it, I say "I've tried doing a search for information regarding this matter but was unable to turn up anything". This way anyone reading my question knows that I made the effort to go down the appropriate channels to locate the information but was just unable to.

Now...if you place that disclaimer in your posts and someone Googles it and finds the very info you claimed to look for within the first couple of search results that pop up, then they know you lied about that of course. So use this disclaimer wisely...make darn sure you cannot find the information yourself before you send others in search of what you supposedly couldn't find. Otherwise you just make yourself look like a lazy fool that just wants free answers for no effort and that disclaimer quickly turns into "I'm too lazy to search for the information myself so I expect all of you to find it for me".

I guess I'm not unknown in the chat room, since I visit it regularly and leave the problems to those who are able to provide proper solutions, just to name three of them who are 3v0, ericgibbs and Jon_Wilder.

Programming microcontrollers is just not my thing and therefor I keep out of any discussion.

They are all more than double as patient than I am and sometimes answer the same question over and over.

I have never seen the name "dakta" in the users list.

dakta, I guess you should visit the chat room from time to time to get a true impression of what is happening there.

There are indeed some members who demand to get a ready-to-go circuit served on a silver platter without thinking to understand the circuit. Some of them even demand a complete BOM (possibly fitting the order form) They just want to build it!

Boncuk

I have become much less patient lately simply because I have come across so many new(er) members who just demand answers, and then refuse to listen to the explanations. One or two that I have met recently do indeed act, as Jon mentioned before, like self-centered spoiled rotten brats (I say "Act" so as not to insult the actual members). I do not appreciate some of the attitudes that I have been seeing in chat recently. Another thing that bugs me is when members go way too fast and try to do advanced electronics without any (and I mean ANY) basic knowledge. I'm sure some of the people who have posted in this thread know exactly who I'm talking about, and honestly, I hope he's reading this too. They need to know that the way they has been acting will not get them anywhere, especially on a forum here. They are very impolite, twist words around, don't pay attention when spoken to, refuse answers, and overall just AWFUL students. If you are not willing to do your part in the learning process, the teachers will not hesitate to refuse to give you help. I liked what be80be said earlier about help being a gift. Nobody is required to help anybody. Any advice given, any assistance or knowledge, is a gift. Think about this: Consider somebody gives you a gift and you turn it down, or are very rude about it. Do you really think they're going to want to give you anything else in the future? Think about that. I hope this thread gets through to at least somebody and makes a difference. Thank you for starting it, 3v0, and thanks for all the other contributions.

Regards,
Der Strom