Federal Light Bulb Legislation.

gary350 · Oct 5, 2011

jpanhalt said:
I agree with MrRB and add one small point. Current pricing for CFL's includes in many areas (e.g., US, Canada) government subsidies. The real cost and unsubsidized price are hidden. Price comparisons between a non-subsidized item and a subsidized item are always misleading.

Back to the original post. I spent some time last night searching the Federal Register (USA) for the regulation affecting fluorescent bulbs and requiring production of the two-pin bulb varieties (T12, T8) to cease to cease 7/14/2012. All I could find were regulations related to efficiency of the ballasts. You will notice that new T12 fixtures are very hard to find. However, the bulbs are still available.

Can anyone post a link to a more authoritative source for that claim?

John

There is an ad on Nashville Craigslist, 8 ft long T12 used fluorescent light fixtures $4 each. The photo shows what appears to be several 100 fixtures per pile and several piles of fixtures. The problem with buying used fixtures you don't know if they will start going bad in 1 month or 10 years. I think used fixtures, a case of bulbs, 20% extra on your electric bill, is much cheaper than new fixtures and new bulbs. 5 or 10 years down the road when the fixtures start going bad they your forced to replace them one by one if you buy a few extra used light fixtures bought for parts its still cheaper than new fixtures and new bulbs. But the NEW bulbs are color corrected it is more like natural sun light this would be REAL NICE in a shop as long as you don't get ripped on the price. Check the price on the new T5 single pin fixtures and bulbs to see what you think.

jpanhalt · Oct 5, 2011

gary350 said:
In about 3 months you will no longer be able to buy certain types of light bulbs. They will no longer be manufactured.

1/1/2012, no more 100 watt and 60 watt incandescent light bulbs.
7/14/2012, no more T12 or T8 with 2 pin fluorescent light bulbs.
1/1/2012, no more incandescent flood and spot light bulbs PAR 20, 30, 38.
1/1/2013, no more 75 watt incandescent light bulbs.
1/1/2014, no more 40 & 60 watt incandescent light bulbs.[/quote}

I am not so worried abut the fixtures. It is the source of the regulation related to the bulbs that I would like to confirm.

John

Reloadron · Oct 5, 2011

I had planned to retire to North Carolina but I may reconsider:

Fed up with the federal government’s ban of the traditional incandescent light bulb, state representatives in South Carolina are pushing for the state to produce and use incandescents solely for its state.

The Incandescent Light Bulb Freedom Act, which unanimously passed South Carolina’s Senate panel, would allow South Carolina manufacturers to continue to sell incandescent bulbs so long as they have “Made in South Carolina” on them and are sold only within the state. Other states have floated the idea, and last year Arizona passed a bill that would have done the same thing, but Governor Jan Brewer (R) vetoed the legislation.

Whether the legislation becomes law remains to be seen, and even if it does become law, lawsuits will likely ensue. Regardless, South Carolina’s efforts demonstrate the will to remove the federal government’s ability to restrict individual choice. If the compact florescent light bulb (CFL) is a better choice, consumers will make that choice without the government’s push.

Think of the black market possibilities for light bulbs. I can bring bulbs up here and stand on street corners saying "Hey buddy want to buy some drugs err light bulbs.

The above quote was taken from here.

Interesting about the flourescent tubes so thanks for that information.

Ron

ben7 · Oct 5, 2011

Reloadron said:
If I drop an Incandescent bulb I sweep it up. If I drop and break a CFL bulb it becomes another story. I guess I am also getting weary of a government that continues to tell me what is good for me.

Ron

What? I still have a cracked cfl sitting on my workbench that I took apart, the amount of mercury is soo tiny its rather harmless.
-Ben

BrownOut · Oct 5, 2011

Mr RB said:
Apart from the reality that CFLs blow up after 2 to 4 months. Once you are required to use them by "law" (as we are in Australia) then there is no need for the manufacturers or importers to sell you quality product as it becomes an "evil monopoly" and you don't have any choice. So quality drops through the floor. You guys will find out soon enough.

As I noted earlier, I switched over to CFL's more than 5 years ago, and have only experienced a single failure. It won't be an "evil monopoly" because it's an open market, and producers will be competitive for price and performance. There are lots of examples where such ubiquity has produced perfectly fine products.

That looks good on paper, until you factor in that 12000 hours of CFL will require 10 more CFLs (based on my own findings anyway). Also, when they blow up it is usually the HV electrolytic capacitor, that spews really toxic fumes through the whole house.

I can't imagine who so many others don't have these issues??? The ones I buy and use are perfectly safe and reliable. Considering the long life of the products I've used, I'd say my calculations are accurate and reflect the savings I realize by using these products.

Also factor in the time and hassle of replacing them and the trips to the store, and if you value environmental concerns then factor in the nasty manufacturing of PCBs, capacitors, mercury, fluorescent materials for 10 CFLs compared to the manufacturing of 1 or 2 glass and tungsten bulbs...

That's why we need to cease being a 'throw away' society, and push for better disposal of our products. We need to give a damn about what we pass on. Also factor in the amount of mercury and other nasties that wasting energy produces in the environment.

Also domestic electricity is maybe 8% of the national usage as 92% is used by commercial and industry, and out of that the lighting uses only a tiny percentage of your domestic power as 90% goes to heating, cooking, hotwater, and appliances. So it's a crock, pure and simple.

The new regulations will affect commercial usage and produce even more savings. Most industries have found switching to energy saving technology actually saves money in the long run. I think the estimates of the domestic lighting portion of domestic energy usage is being lo-balled. Switching to efficient technology saves on bills over the life time of the product. Efficient appliances are another good way to save both energy and money.

Reloadron · Oct 5, 2011

ben7 said:
What? I still have a cracked cfl sitting on my workbench that I took apart, the amount of mercury is soo tiny its rather harmless.
-Ben

I know it doesn't amount to much of anything. I merely pointed out that the EPA in their infinite wisdom has guidelines.

Ron

BrownOut · Oct 5, 2011

It probably isn't a bad idea to ventilate a room once a CFL is broken. Mercury evaoprates rapidly, so opening a window for 5 min most likely clears out the bad stuff.

Roff · Oct 5, 2011

BrownOut said:
It probably isn't a bad idea to ventilate a room once a CFL is broken. Mercury evaoprates rapidly, so opening a window for 5 min most likely clears out the bad stuff.

I don't believe mercury evaporates rapidly. Try a Google search on mercury evaporation.
**broken link removed** suggests that a a drop of diameter 6mm loses only 0.01 g in seven months. All the other relevant results that I read confirmed that mercury evaporates very slowly at room temperature.

BrownOut · Oct 5, 2011

Hi Roff, thanks for the correction. Mercury does indeed evaporate slowly, I was probably remembering the warnings from my chemistry class that evaporation of mercury quickly satruates the air in poorly ventilated rooms. However, as it turns out, most of the mercury released from a broken CFL buld is already in vapor form, and so ventilating the room is still a pretty good idea. The broken lamp should be put into a sealed container and removed, thus eliminating any further release of mercury vapor where it can do harm. The amount of liquid mercury is low, and can easily be disposed of.

Once broken, a compact fluorescent light bulb continuously releases mercury vapor into the air for weeks to months, and the total amount can exceed safe human exposure levels in a poorly ventilated room, according to study results reported in Environmental Engineering Science, a peer-reviewed online only journal published monthly by Mary Ann Liebert, Inc. The article is available free online.

The amount of liquid mercury (Hg) that leaches from a broken compact fluorescent lamp (CFL) is lower than the level allowed by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), so CFLs are not considered hazardous waste. However, Yadong Li and Li Jin, Jackson State University (Jackson, MS) report that the total amount of Hg vapor released from a broken CFL over time can be higher than the amount considered safe for human exposure. They document their findings in the article “Environmental Release of Mercury from Broken Compact Fluorescent Lamps.”

**broken link removed**

Roff · Oct 5, 2011

BrownOut said:
Hi Roff, thanks for the correction. Mercury does indeed evaporate slowly, I was probably remembering the warnings from my chemistry class that evaporation of mercury quickly satruates the air in poorly ventilated rooms. However, as it turns out, most of the mercury released from a broken CFL buld is already in vapor form, and so ventilating the room is still a pretty good idea. The broken lamp should be put into a sealed container and removed, thus eliminating any further release of mercury vapor where it can do harm. The amount of liquid mercury is low, and can easily be disposed of.

**broken link removed**

Good stuff (the link, not the mercury).

Mr RB · Oct 5, 2011

BrownOut said:
As I noted earlier, I switched over to CFL's more than 5 years ago, and have only experienced a single failure. It won't be an "evil monopoly" because it's an open market, and producers will be competitive for price and performance. There are lots of examples where such ubiquity has produced perfectly fine products.
...

OK, I should have clarified one point which is that we have 240vAC mains so the HV caps and FETs in the CFL run at about 350vDC, which is probably leading to a less-reliable CFL product than a 120vAC mains CFL as you would be using.

But I will still stand by the premise that over time your CFLs will drop in quality. The retailers and distributors will be under pressure to source the cheapest CFLs they can source (especially once Govt subsidies stop) and the Asian manufacturers will push through products that get more and more shoddy. It happened here, in the early days I remember friends bragging their new CFLs would last X years, and some did. Now you would be hard pushed to find a CFL that gives more than a few months.

The manufacturers are not penalised in any way (like warranty) if the CFL fails after a few months, so it is in their best interest to use cheaper and worse-specced parts (to increase profit) until it will "top out" with a barely-reliable product that lasts, as you might guess, a few months at most. Long enough so they don't get returns in the first few weeks by an angry customer, but no need to make it last say a whole year. They can sell you 3 CFLs during a whole year. That's a much better business model.

I replace my Dad's CFLs regularly when they blow, as he likes the things and has them everywhere. Personally I only have about 2 CFLs in the house, and use incandescents and 4ft fluoros everythwere possible. Even with just 2 CFLs and modest use they are blowing on a regular basis.

Another negative is the high freq light from the CFLs really draws insects.

I'm all for energy efficiency, but why legislate and try to FORCE the public to adopt a technology? It's Draconian. If something is good, then educate and let people CHOOSE the option they prefer. I don't want to get political but the Govt is not our master it is our servant, a fact they seem to be forgetting lately...

BrownOut · Oct 5, 2011

Wow. You have all kind of problems I've never experienced. Any light draws bugs. When I used incandescent bulbs, they drew all kinds of bugs. And my CFL's are running 5+ years with no issues.

I don't really see quality becoming an issue, except for those who really want to cheap out and buy the cheapest chinese product available. Manufactures will still compete on price and performance. The race doesn't always go the cheapest. Quality product will be available in the future. And manufactures do offer warrenties, if you read the thread, you'd probably know that.

I don't see the legislation as forcing people to adopt a technology. I see it as requiring more efficiency, regardless of the technology.

BrownOut · Oct 5, 2011

The US governement has banned many products over the years, as has other governments. Now we are being told the quality of the 'compeating' products will fall. Can anyone name a compeating product who's quality fell after it's counterpart was banned?

strantor · Oct 5, 2011

M-80s. **broken link removed**)
fireworks get weaker and weaker every year

BrownOut · Oct 5, 2011

Not around here they don't. The kids still wake my up with those damn thing.

bryan · Oct 6, 2011

ben7 said:
What? I still have a cracked cfl sitting on my workbench that I took apart, the amount of mercury is soo tiny its rather harmless.
-Ben

Probably more mercury in a can of tuna than a CFL...

jpanhalt · Oct 6, 2011

bryan said:
Probably more mercury in a can of tuna than a CFL...

You must buy very large cans of tuna!

CFL's are said to contain an average of 4 mg of mercury each. That means some contain even more than that.

https://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=cfls.pr_cfls_mercury

The maximum amount of mercury allowed in tuna is 1 ppm (1 mg/Kg). The following is an excerpt from the full study, which also addresses whether pregnant and nursing women should eat tuna.

Source: https://www.consumerreports.org/cro...nuary/food/mercury-in-tuna/overview/index.htm

Every sample [Consumer Reports tested various tuna from store shelves] contained measurable levels of mercury, ranging from 0.018 to 0.774 parts per million. The Food and Drug Administration can take legal action to pull products containing 1 ppm or more from the market. (It never has, according to an FDA spokesman.) The EPA compiles fish advisories when state and local governments have found high contaminant levels in certain locally caught fish.

I just don't see how someone can be comfortable with a guess about risks, when the risks are serious, the damages are likely to be permanent, and the data are out there.

John

strantor · Oct 6, 2011

**broken link removed**. How do they manage to use so much money? What do they do? well, they do a bunch of silly tests & studies! tests & studies like:
Risk of Mercury to Bald Eagles in the Great Lakes Region
Risk of Mercury to Bald Eagles in Michigan
Risk of Mercury to Loons in Central Ontario
Risk of Mercury to Mink in Georgia, North Carolina, and South Carolina
Risk of Mercury to Mink in Michigan
Risk of Mercury to Great Egrets in south Florida
Calculation of a Criterion Value for Protection of Piscivorous Wildlife
Procedure Used to Develop Criterion Values for Wildlife in the Water Quality Guidance for the Great Lakes System
Bioaccumulation Factors (BAFs) for Magnification of Methylmercury in Aquatic Food Chains
Exposure Parameters
Summary of Health Endpoints for Avian and Mammalian Wildlife
Calculation of Wildlife Criterion Values
Calculation of Mercury Residues in Fish Corresponding to the Wildlife Criterion Value
Calculation of the Wildlife Criterion Value for Total Mercury in Water
Calculation of a Wildlife Criterion for the Florida Panther

So I suspect that if the EPA says that if you break a CFL that you should evacuate and ventilate, it's because they spent a few billion dollars (FY2010 they spent 10billion vs the average of 7 billion, I assume that a good portion of this extra 3 billion was spent on CFLs) breaking about tens of thousands of CFLs from every manufacturer and measuring the levels and how long it takes to dissipate, and the effects of the levels and dissipation rates on humans. I didn't find any links on the EPA website specifically detailing their CFL studies, but that's probably due to the excessive crappiness of their search engine and the fact that most of their documents are scanned paper printouts which I assume are only linked to the search by keywords.

**broken link removed**
On average, CFLs contain about four milligrams of mercury sealed within the glass tubing. By comparison, older thermometers contain about 500 milligrams of mercury – an amount equal to the mercury in over 100 CFLs.

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe...e&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=1&SeekPage=x&ZyPURL#

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe...e&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=1&SeekPage=x&ZyPURL#

jpanhalt · Oct 6, 2011

What does the amount of mercury in household thermometers (now also eliminated by regulation) have to do with the safety of CFL's, particularly when there are safer alternatives, like incandescent lamps.

John

strantor · Oct 6, 2011

nothing. I'm not sure why I put that there; it's a qoute from the EPA website. There was some speculation earlier as to how much mercury was in a CFL, but you already cleared up in post #57.

Federal Light Bulb Legislation.

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