boosting the car's 12VDC to 24 or 48 VDC

[audioguru]

If an emissions technician sees that you modded the engine (with added HHO) then he will not test it, he will fail it immediately. If it is tested then the NOX pollutant will be way too high.

Car manufacturers pay extra taxes for a fleet that has poor fuel economy. They would be the first to use HHO if it worked.

 

[livehho]

**broken link removed**

 

[audioguru]

A long time ago, Hy-Drive tested some very old vehicles with added HHO. Did they have pollution controls in them? The added HHO made lower emissions. No mention of how much the power was reduced. I didn't see fuel economy.

I don't think car manufacturers make very old vehicles any more. Does anybody still have one?

 

[Sceadwian]

The energy conversion of water to hydrogen an oxygen via electrolysis takes more energy than you get from the combustion of hydrogen and oxygen, this is simple unalterable fact, if you get any improvement in mileage it is NOT from the electrolysis and combustion process with the hydrogen and oxygen, unless you've re-written the laws of physics and no one's noticed.. Entropy in a system can only increase, it can never decrease. Again you can claim anything you want, but you can't violate the laws of physics.

 

[Broz]

The energy conversion of water to hydrogen an oxygen via electrolysis takes more energy than you get from the combustion of hydrogen and oxygen, this is simple unalterable fact, if you get any improvement in mileage it is NOT from the electrolysis and combustion process with the hydrogen and oxygen, unless you've re-written the laws of physics and no one's noticed.. Entropy in a system can only increase, it can never decrease. Again you can claim anything you want, but you can't violate the laws of physics.

Got that right! Though you know some will claim that the HHO somehow effects the mixture making it more efficient. The question then is, why not just adjust the mixture without using HHO, you can become a Charles Lindbergh, king of melted pistons and blown cylinder heads.

 

[Sceadwian]

Electrolysis is only in the area of 60-80% or so efficient, so just from the FIRST stage you've lost 20% minimum of the power you're putting in. And yeah Broz, you're exactly right, he's gonna run on that for another year or two tops and then one day he's gonna floor it and the entire engine is going to weld itself into a tangled block of metal.

 

[audioguru]

The HHO scammers should try burning crumpled newspapers in their engines.

 

[tcmtech]

you can become a Charles Lindbergh, king of melted pistons and blown cylinder heads

then one day he's gonna floor it and the entire engine is going to weld itself into a tangled block of metal.

You guys speak the truth more than you realize!
I purposely do all of my hydrogen testing with small lawn and garden engines. And I DO have a few ruined ones to show for it too! At around $25 - $50 apiece they are rather expendable when compared to a vehicle and its engine!
I've crushed a connecting rod. Had the piston head come right off the body of the piston. (I still have that one in the parts block if you want a picture)
Split a cast aluminum head in two. Had so many back fires I should be deaf by now.
And all in all I learned some key points that are supportive of the hydrogen power.
I dont deny that HHO gas or pure hydrogen are potentially great sources of clean fuel but I dont exactly put my support behind just dumping it into an unmodified engine and hoping it works!
Until someone drives to my house and lets me have an honest look at how their HHO system works and helps me build one and install it on my own vehicle for testing I am still going to be sceptical too!

But you come here and prove it works and I will even pay for your fuel both ways and put you up in the best hotel we have in town!

 

[livehho]

I don't 'claim'.. I'm 'doing' it

48% fuel efficiency in a Toyota Truck '95 ...... right now!!

Note that the results are not simply caused by the displacement of a small amount of fossil fuel with an equivalent volume of hydrogen. Rather, the increase in efficiency is gained by getting more useful work out of the fossil fuel itself, resulting in less energy wasted in the form of heat.

Electrolysis, itself, is well understood and it has been known for over thirty years that the addition of hydrogen to fossil fuels, burned in internal combustion engines, will increase the efficiency of that engine. This premise has been validated by a number of papers published by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE). The concept is valid with any fossil fuel (diesel, gasoline, propane, natural gas) or bio-fuel (biodiesel, ethanol) though it is most effective in diesel engines. Among other, more subtle effects , the presence of the hydrogen alters the initial stages of the unfolding combustion dynamic, altering the kinetic chemical pathway which the combustion follows. The net effect is to alter the time at which maximum heat energy is released relative to the power cycle, increasing the adiabatic efficiency of the engine (typically a modern diesel engine runs around 40% efficient - an increase of only 4% in the adiabatic efficiency results in a 10% decrease in fuel consumption!).

 

[audioguru]

Then why don't car manufacturers use HHO in their new cars?

 

[Broz]

I don't 'claim'.. I'm 'doing' it

48% fuel efficiency in a Toyota Truck '95 ...... right now!!

Note that the results are not simply caused by the displacement of a small amount of fossil fuel with an equivalent volume of hydrogen. Rather, the increase in efficiency is gained by getting more useful work out of the fossil fuel itself, resulting in less energy wasted in the form of heat.

Electrolysis, itself, is well understood and it has been known for over thirty years that the addition of hydrogen to fossil fuels, burned in internal combustion engines, will increase the efficiency of that engine. This premise has been validated by a number of papers published by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE). The concept is valid with any fossil fuel (diesel, gasoline, propane, natural gas) or bio-fuel (biodiesel, ethanol) though it is most effective in diesel engines. Among other, more subtle effects , the presence of the hydrogen alters the initial stages of the unfolding combustion dynamic, altering the kinetic chemical pathway which the combustion follows. The net effect is to alter the time at which maximum heat energy is released relative to the power cycle, increasing the adiabatic efficiency of the engine (typically a modern diesel engine runs around 40% efficient - an increase of only 4% in the adiabatic efficiency results in a 10% decrease in fuel consumption!).

Are you married? Do you have children? If so, more reason to take tcmtech's offer. I hear North Dakota is pretty. Though I'm a hunter and I would love to see the landscape and kill some game there. He's made a very generous offer. Go visit him and let him evaluate the fuel economy of the vehicle. What have you got to lose? He's paying for it all. I would add in the stipulation that if you are not truthful about it, you pay for the trip, but even then, if you're honest, go for it. God I wish I could see North Dakota. I might come up with a clean burning engine just so tcmtech will fund my families trip there.

 

[tcmtech]

Dam. You did your home work!
About time someone came forward with the actual chemistry and physics of how it works. Plus one for you!

You are absolutely right on the adding higher purity hydrogen to fossil fuels. I wont argue with you on that one. The local UND research facility does in fact have hydrogen boosted diesel powered tractors that have shown very measurable improvements in their fuel efficiency and a measurable decrease in emissions on the diesels under real life working conditions. I will call that a plus two for you!

However their testing on unmodified gasoline engines proved that in real world working conditions the hydrogen boosting was unfortunately so marginal that the combined variation in actual average gasolines usable BTU per unit of measure plus personal driving habits and working conditions could not prove a reliable or solid base reference point.

Straight hydrogen as a fuel in an unmodified engine is weak, inefficient, and can be rather destructive too! Been there, done that, and confirmed!
oop, now I go to take one back.

I have done actual propane boosting experiments on all three pickups I have owned and it does give a measurable and repeatable improvement in fuel economy. (running full propane is still far cheaper when factored in cost per mile terms though)

However due to the need for much higher combustion pressures to get the added energy out of hydrogen I am skeptical about it working on a unmodified engine with stock compression.
I have been reluctant to do a hydrogen boost with a built up engine so far, so my jury is still out on this one. So your still up one in my book!

 

[livehho]

Are you married? Do you have children? If so, more reason to take tcmtech's offer. I hear North Dakota is pretty. Though I'm a hunter and I would love to see the landscape and kill some game there. He's made a very generous offer. Go visit him and let him evaluate the fuel economy of the vehicle. What have you got to lose? He's paying for it all. I would add in the stipulation that if you are not truthful about it, you pay for the trip, but even then, if you're honest, go for it. God I wish I could see North Dakota. I might come up with a clean burning engine just so tcmtech will fund my families trip there.

If I didn't live in Costa Rica I would be glad to show you my set up.. When I go fishing in North Dakota I'll make sure I pay tcmtech a visit.. and maybe take some pictures of the trees too

 

[tcmtech]

Seriously The offer is real! We are nice people and I will stand behind it! If you want to hunt or fish or just see the sites while we take my HHO boosted pickup on a drive to prove your right or not we can do that.

And dont worry about my not having the materials or tools to build one. I got the stuff.
Welders, plasma cutters, lathe and milling machine, copper, stainless steel sheets, access to any chemicals and materials you a may need, and I have some commercial alternators and generators that can put out well over 200 amps at 30 -50 volts and still fit under the hood!

I am an honest and usually unbiased about scientific testing and non conventional approaches to most everything.

But you show up and say "well it worked great up until the last few miles". and then we build one and I see no honest and or measurable change in my fuel economy during real world driving conditions, Well Just think about what a person with the above mentioned stuff can do to a liar and a cheat.

But you will get 0 money out of me until the test is done and confirmed!

 

[tcmtech]

When I go fishing in North Dakota I'll make sure I pay tcmtech a visit.. and maybe take some pictures of the trees too

I wish he would have used the sarcastic face after that one if he is not serious.

We are actually are a well known fishing location and we do actually have lots of tree's too!
Not Minnesota lots, but still a bunch!

 

[livehho]

I wish he would have used the sarcastic face after that one if he is not serious.

We are actually are a well known fishing location and we do actually have lots of tree's too!
Not Minnesota lots, but still a bunch!

I'm pretty serious about the fishing.. indeed

If ever want to come visit Costa Rica and go fishing let me know..

 

[tcmtech]

Im not a fisherm an but I am getting into scuba and costa rica is on theplaces to visit list at the local dive shop!
I will have to see what my business profits are this year. (if there are any)

 

[tcmtech]

On the serious side of your original voltage conversion question. Have you considered possibly using an alternator modified for the 48 volts and using a SMPS to buck the higher alternator voltage DOWN for the vehicles electrical system?

That way the actual alternators output voltage can vary from say 15 to 48 or evenmore but the vehicles electrical system still runs normally?
Being that the higher voltage load is the larger load and the vehicle is the lesser one.
You can get by with far less heavy wire and a simpler voltage conversion circuit if you go from higher to lower voltage.

Just something to ponder on!

 

[livehho]

On the serious side of your original voltage conversion question. Have you considered possibly using an alternator modified for the 48 volts and using a SMPS to buck the higher alternator voltage DOWN for the vehicles electrical system?

That way the actual alternators output voltage can vary from say 15 to 48 or evenmore but the vehicles electrical system still runs normally?
Being that the higher voltage load is the larger load and the vehicle is the lesser one.
You can get by with far less heavy wire and a simpler voltage conversion circuit if you go from higher to lower voltage.

Just something to ponder on!

right.. the vehicle electrical system still runs normally (14VDC). I need the 24/48 VDC just for the device

Who sells those kind of alternators?

 

[tcmtech]

I've gotten Leese-Neville units from industrial equipment that were rated at 28 volts 200 amps. I have seen some very large construction equipment with 48 volt 100 amp alternators, but I dont recall the manufacturer. (but they are about a foot in diameter and nearly a foot long too)

If you take a stock alternator apart and just supply a constant voltage to the rotor field coils and you will get a proportional output that varies with the RPM's. Many stock GM alternators rated for 12 volts at 100 amps can hit well over 100 volts at 50 amps doing that! (10K+ RPM's though)

With the GM and most internally regulated alternators you can cheat the regulators voltage reference signal and fake it into boosting the actual output. Just put a voltage divider on the reference line. But if you get much over double the normal running voltage the regulators internal components burn up!
But you can still get around that by using an external power source for the regulators control power.
Most alternator regulators have a master current feed line coming from either after the main bridge rectifiers or from an independent rectifier set. Just put what was the normal voltage to that point and the regulator can then control the alternators output at any voltage within reason.

By using the cheater method you could realistically get 48 - 72 volts or higher from most stock 24 volt alternators and still hold the full amp rating too!

Many of the larger commercial and industrial alternators actually have both the positive and negative isolated. That does make them capable of being stacked to a limited degree. Or set up as a dual system with one running standard negative ground and the other running positive ground.

As far as getting a new one check with your local commercial truck and heavy construction or farming equipment dealers.

If you dont mind doing a rebuild your self you can get them at the scrap yards for cheap! Thats were all of mine come from. A rebuild kit is way cheaper than a new or re-manufactured alternator.
Plus while doing a rebuild you can tweak and modify it if you want to!