Best approach in tutoring an OP's?

[ericgibbs]

hi,
In a current thread its been suggested that a pedagogic approach is better than helping an OP with the problems directly associated with his project.

The idea proposed was that making the original circuit more complex would lead to exponential learning by the OP.

My contrary argument is to make the circuits as simple as possible, so the OP understands and completes the original assignment and then takes the next step.

Would be interesting to hear your opinions.

Eric

 

[USER REDACTED]

No, there is several wrong points in all this.

hi,
In a current thread its been suggested that a pedagogic approach is better than helping an OP with the problems directly associated with his project.

Distinguish should be done in few steps:

1. OP's level of knowledge
2. What he want to make
3. What he did so far

If somebody says: "I'm a high school student just started with electronic and I want to do this - here is what I done. Is it good? Can it be better?"

What could to say to him?

1. "This is a completely garbage! Just give up from this!". Of course there is much better way than beginner just done. As a bonus, it will never ask a thing again.

2. "I'm an experience EE, this could be done much simplest using <using some parts and approaches OP probably never hear about>". Of course there is much better way.

3. "This is fine for beginning, just consider using another approach using parts you are familiar with or involve some new usually used" Etc. then OP will not get lost in experience way of solving the problem.

The idea proposed was that making the original circuit more complex would lead to exponential learning by the OP.

That is not true.

If OP is willing to learn and showing it's improving in existed circuit adding more parts he is familiar with or learned about in the meanwhile extending complexity, eventually will see that more and more problems are created and start all over. This is important part of learning process, learning exactly why that approach is not good and what actually get wrong, in which case will never make that mistake again - ever! Period.

Instead, it will carefully see what is the assignment, what is the best approach based on what he already know and learn more about parts he is not familiar with, research further to completely understand all happens behind the circuit, what can go wrong if replace or missing some part, etc.

My contrary argument is to make the circuits as simple as possible, so the OP understands and completes the original assignment and then takes the next step.

OP which is the student from beginning ask you: "How I can do this?".
If you gave him circuit 100% solve the problem, it will return with the same question again and again, learning nothing, except that other can make his own home work.

If you are retired EE, you are full of experience someone just beginning may hardly understand why that is just the simplest approach to do. Otherwise, you will lost a lot of time explaining cascade theories of operation.

That is simply why experimenting and learning on it's own mistakes is invaluable experience.

And that is the whole point.

 

[jpanhalt]

Is this the thread to which you (Eric Gibbs) refer: https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/clock-timer-school-project.145459/page-5#post-1230249

I agree that the best approach is to address the OP's question directly when possible. When the dust settles, the OP is satisfied, and the discussion wanders, then complexities can be discussed for the benefit of others reading the thread. Before that, they only add confusion. I am not a great fan of "exponential learning." If there is such a period, it is very early and ends early. It may also be age related, as when children learn to speak.

John

 

[Mikebits]

Good word, I had to look up pedagogic. I think and pardon the adage, "You need to learn to walk before you run". I have followed the thread you mention and think you have a fine job of developing this fellow into a potential designer. To consider or add bells and whistles to the current project is not only distracting to solving the original problem, it is cause of brain flush. That's what I call it. Before the brain can build long term building blocks of the key points one really needs to know, the new information comes along and causes a flush of key points of information in the original problem. End result, is the student neither remembers the original information, but the new information is somewhat scattered and convoluted with the older data and the person is now more uncertain of any of the information.
So, in closing, I think your approach is most suitable, eat a small piece of the pie at a time until your able to digest it all without getting a stomach ache, or in this case, a brain flush.

 

[ericgibbs]

No, there is several wrong points in all this.
Exactly what is the No' referring too.??

Distinguish should be done in few steps:
1. OP's level of knowledge
2. What he want to make
3. What he did so far
This is exactly what I did.

If somebody says: "I'm a high school student just started with electronic and I want to do this - here is what I done. Is it good? Can it be better?"
What could to say to him?
1. "This is a completely garbage - you are an idiot! Just give up from this!"
No, I would never say that.!

2. "I'm an experience EE, this could be done much simplest using <using some parts OP probably never hear about>"
I have only posted about the existing parts on his diagram, no new parts suggested.

3. "This is fine for beginning, just consider using another approach using parts you are familiar with or involve some new usually used" Etc. then OP will not get lost in experience way of solving the problem.
I did suggest in a number of posted circuits a new way of using the existing parts.

ericgibbs said: ↑
The idea proposed was that making the original circuit more complex would lead to exponential learning by the OP.
That is not true.
Go re-read your post.
And you overcome it greatly, with exponential learning rate!

If OP is willing to learn and showing it's improving in existed circuit adding more parts he is familiar with extending complexity, eventually will see that more and more problems are created and start all over. This is important part of learning process, learning exactly why that approach is not good and what actually get wrong, in which case will never make that mistake again - ever! Period.
But the whole point the OP is NOT is familiar with the existing parts

Instead, it will carefully see what is the assignment, what is the best approach based on what he already know and learn more about parts he is not familiar with, research further to completely understand all happens behind the circuit, what can go wrong if replace or missing some part, etc.
Again, he was not familiar with his existing circuit, so why make it more complex.???

My contrary argument is to make the circuits as simple as possible, so the OP understands and completes the original assignment and then takes the next step.

OP which is the student from beginning ask you: "How I can do this?".
If you gave him circuit 100% solve the problem, it will return with the same question again and again, learning nothing, except that other can make his own home work.
I have not given him the FULL circuits, only simple step changes to simplify his original circuit.

If you are retired EE, you are full of experience someone just beginning may hardly understand why that is just the simplest approach to do. Otherwise, you will lost a lot of time explaining cascade theories of operation.
The fact that I am Retired Chartered Electronics & Radio engineer, with many years of practical experience, IMHO is not a draw back, it is an advantage.

That is simply why experimenting and learning on it's own mistakes is invaluable experience.
Who ever said is was not.???

And that is the whole point.

testmpc

Why is my age, qualifications and experience giving you such a problem.?
Get over it.

BTW:
Your initial posts in the other thread were telling the OP to redraw his data lines etc as 'grouped solid' lines, HOW could he do that when the circuit diagram was a screen shot of a simulator to run his program.??

E

 

[USER REDACTED]

Why is my age, qualifications and experience giving you such a problem.?
Get over it.

As I said, you have started all involving vanity in. Please avoid that as there is nothing about. I do not want to fight at all or arguing. BTW, I'm almost retired too.

And this whole thread is based on false assumptions. All my basic points are wrote upper and there is no much to add.

Are you licensed teacher or just worked in the industry? I'm not and do not want to be.
Did you tutoring OP to know his abilities? I do not.

I do not want to teach no one to read nor memorize multiplication table to 12x12, except just to point to some shortcuts to learn faster or better. For basic exists licensed teachers, books and school.

Otherwise, I would start banging my head in the wall as you did here:

You should have easily found the differences yourself.!

 

[ericgibbs]

ericgibbs said: ↑
You should have easily found the differences yourself.!

Why do you think its necessary to post an out of context Quotation, which was made on a different thread, dated June 2015.???
https://www.electro-tech-online.com/posts/1222585/

You are a time waster or worse.

If you are not able to discuss the topic of this thread in a meaningful manner, then there is no point me replying to your posts.

 

[DerStrom8]

The student must understand the basics of electronics first. They must know what capacitors, resistors, inductors, transistors, and diodes do. If they know how some chips work, even better. Otherwise, I would start at the beginning and describe components and their functions.

Some people learn better through crash-courses, taking on a huge project with little to no prior understanding of the subject. I can certainly understand this (I am such a learner), but it is still important that the student understand the basics. Complex circuits using lots of components may be very overwhelming, which can slow or even stop the student from learning. If I were teaching, I would start with the simplest form of a circuit, explain how it works, then add a little bit more to improve it. Everyone learns differently, but I think this would be the most effective to most people.

 

[USER REDACTED]

You are a time waster or worse.

If you are not able to discuss the topic of this thread in a meaningful manner, then there is no point me replying to your posts.

Again, I do not want to argue at all as you started this from wrong reasons. Please do not reply on my posts anymore.

The whole thread is pointless anyway, as the main assumption about "tutoring OP" is absolutely wrong.

Some of moderators may lock it.

 

[DerStrom8]

The whole thread is pointless anyway, as the main assumption about "tutoring OP" is absolutely wrong.

Some of moderators may lock it.

The only thing wrong I'm seeing with this thread is that you appear to be trying to pick a fight when nobody said anything to insult or provoke you.

The question, as I understood it, was mainly asking what method of teaching is most effective--Starting with the basics and working up, or starting with more complex circuits to get them immersed in the material sooner. I consider that to be a very good question, and one that pops up all the time.

There is no call for being rude.

 

[USER REDACTED]

The only thing wrong I'm seeing with this thread is that you appear to be trying to pick a fight when nobody said anything to insult or provoke you..

I'm quite disappointed a moderator saying this.

Please start reading from here and conclude further:
https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/clock-timer-school-project.145459/page-5#post-1230163

You may delete my account after all. Thank you.

 

[DerStrom8]

I'm quite disappointed a moderator saying this.

Please start reading from here and conclude further:
https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/clock-timer-school-project.145459/page-5#post-1230163

You may delete my account after all. Thank you.

Hi,

I read that thread already and at no point see anything intended to provoke you. I am simply asking that you take a step back and take a deep breath. I think you're taking things too personally, and misunderstanding peoples' intentions.

I have no interest in deleting your account, or even banning you from this thread. I just ask that you keep the flaming to a minimum. I can assure you Eric never meant to insult or provoke you in any way.

Matt

 

[JimB]

testmpc said:

I'm quite disappointed a moderator saying this.

Well, you can be disappointed with this moderator also!

When I saw that Eric had started this thread, I thought "This could be a good discussion".
When I came back two hours later, I thought "This is like a cat chasing its tale", going round and round for no good reason.

Changing the subject and hi-jacking the thread...
How are you getting on with the DCF77 receiver?
Did you try the oscillator which I suggested?

JimB

 

[cowboybob]

Would be interesting to hear your opinions.

It is often difficult trying to determine an OP's actual question. Thus, there is no harm in offering suggestions to the OP that are only meant to clarify the subject.

I'm quite confident that the majority of ETO's members handle these situations professionally and without malice.

 

[JoeJester]

The exercise of purchasing the product and having them follow directions and read the schematic are essential "baby" steps. The project in question was the student challenging themselves, which can be good.

Now, in the homework sections and other "school related" inquiries, it's best to stick within the guidelines of the assignment. Once that is complete, one can engage in expanding the scope of the project as it demonstrates they have a "building block" for future circuits.

I know chips today encompass blocks of circuits from yesterday, but that has NOT eliminated the need for block diagrams. At times, I think the school stuff should start with a block diagram, as it begins the logical thought process ... go back to old school. What goes into a block typically becomes a single IC.

Find out what the customer (teacher in this case) wants and satisfy that need. Don't exceed the customer's desire. Don't satisfy a penny solution with a dime, use the penny.

I've found Eric's working with students in two different forums to be outstanding. I for one urge him to keep up the good work.

 

[Musicmanager]

Morning Guys

As an EE most of you will know I'm an incompetent, irritating novice who has a knack of asking too many questions.

However, as a recently retired AH Teacher with a Masters degree in Education I do have some qualities after all.

I've followed the topic thread all week, mainly for my own benefit, but I was at the time, and I remain impressed with the OP's progress at the hands of his tutor, EG. Teachers in schools in the UK are expected to achieve a standard, monitored by an organisation known as OFSTED, an acronym that's not difficult to assimilate, and in preparation for this a significant degree of peer monitoring takes placed on a regular basis. The results fall into 4 categories .. .. Unsatisfactory; Satisfactory; Good; Outstanding ... ..

The OP was helped to start with a clear set of objectives; Open questions were used to lead him to the solutions to his problems; and most important, the OP left feeling he'd achieved his objectives with a clear understanding of how and why he'd done so.

In my book, and more especially, according to the Ofsted guidelines ... that is outstanding performance and EG should be commended for it.

As more adding complexity to encourage further development .. .. I can tell you from bitter experience that unless factual information is targeted and linked to a specific objective it is rarely retained in useful context and so is to be considered an unhelpful element. After all, if you were teaching an Australian Aborigine or a Bedouin Nomad to understand the English language, would you really suggest they read, mark, learn and inwardly digest the 1st 4 pages of Collin's Dictionary of English Quotations .... ?? Would it really encourage further research or simply serve to underline the enormity of the task they are undertaking ??

Well done Eric, I would have been proud to have delivered such a constructive lesson .. .. and in more general terms, as I've said before ... the generosity of the folk in this forum with their expertise, experience and above all patience is simply amazing and in my view, elevates this forum to another outstanding rating of which the members should be very proud.

Here ends the sermon, we shall now sing hymn number ..... Oh, No ... that's not this .. .. .. ..

S

 

[atferrari]

Exponential learning sounds good (bah, nice to say and maybe impressive ) but I doubt it is actually so if it is done through the process of "scope inflation ". Not with someone exposed to all this for just 4 weeks! The huge number of boards from projects that I never completed are a good example.

Striving to keep focus is the best favor you can do to the OP, besides guiding him on the matters in question.

 

[killivolt]

I don't have time to be in the forum even to reading anything anymore. If I do I stop by and say hi, now and then in Chat.

If you are retired EE, you are full of experience someone just beginning may hardly understand why that is just the simplest approach to do. Otherwise, you will lost a lot of time explaining cascade theories of operation.

That is simply why experimenting and learning on it's own mistakes is invaluable experience.

And that is the whole point.

Out of the post #2 I had to read it 5 times to understand what exactly was typed? If you attempted to learn english the same way you think Electronics should be taught e.g. Exponential Learning; I think it's time to go back and start over and practicin until you make more sense. This is an English Speaking forum and I for one; have a difficult enough time with the language and you would just completely confuse me and make it so much harder by injecting yourself into a Thread; ultimately high jacking the "Thread" and spoiling my opportunity to learn from an accredited and respected member of this forum.

First babies learn to roll over then children gain strength repeating this process then the most likely they will crawl, through this process a child will gain strength and balance. This process is one that has been known for centuries. Skipping any of these processes will hinder growth and capabilities; it's ridiculous to think that you can miss these baby steps. Building circuit after circuit after circuit; while developing your other skill sets is the only way or it is at least for me.

I work at a University; I'm currently taking computer science classes and it requires College Level Math to complete my Certification. But; if a student doesn't understand the basics and can't comprehend the concepts and building blocks needed for a AP Math class that student will ultimately fail.

We have seen this time and time again; because our Accreditation Standards need to be met in order for us to compete with other Universities who offer the same courses. The Math Dept say's students who don't receive a B - / A + will fail the AP Math Course and most some will take the AP Math course 5 to 6 times in order to Graduate. I do believe however, the Math should apply to the Degree. I don't see the need for AP Math if your degree is Dance. Only 23% will pass the AP course first time round.

FYI, I'm still being spoon fed. But; I have been able to build a few successful circuits with the guidance of Members on this site. All the while I slowly build other skill sets needed to become a better hobby guy.


kv

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

The thread went off on a wierd, unexpected, but excellent tangent which I might add seemed to be well received. Cleaning up the spaghetti.

It's very important, really. I wish someone would have identified the disaster of using printed x's and scripts x's when I was learning math. If your not careful, printed x's can morf into y's.

I needed to know very little with my 50:1 electronics project set. In reality, it was a collection of circuits you could build.

The OP should have gotten his alternate proposal approved and it's not clear that he did.

It should also be completed on time. I do remember a project where, in class, we were programming in groups of 4 or 5. I was in a group of 2 with my gf at the time. It was write an Operating system and the corresponding instruction set simulator. To make matters more interesting, it was our very first program in "C". We got "A"'s, but had to turn the project in a little late. One thing I remember, is that I avoided "Case" statements because they were harder. I just stuck to the basics.

That particular thread had a lot of mechanical "cut/paste", i.e. building, so to speak to make have more digits which doesn't really add complexity, but it adds time.

The "most unusual" part of the thread was "What's a datasheet"?

I think the thread had a "happy ending" unless he's graded on "following instructions". e.g. Just don't try this in a Philosophy class.

I "wasted" so much energy trying to understand stuff and kept extrapolating what I learned that I wasn't staying focused in school.
Later, when I was doing some "teaching: myself, usually one on one determining, if the persons learning is visual, verbal or kinesthetic is first on my list. If it happened to be a programming issue, I would just have them explain their logic to me and I wasn't paying attention, They would nearly always find their problem.

In college, we learned logic, logic families, Karnaugh maps, played with the individual devices like flip flops and then used them in a circuit.

 

[Mikebits]

Morning Guys



As more adding complexity to encourage further development .. .. I can tell you from bitter experience that unless factual information is targeted and linked to a specific objective it is rarely retained in useful context and so is to be considered an unhelpful element. After all, if you were teaching an Australian Aborigine or a Bedouin Nomad to understand the English language, would you really suggest they read, mark, learn and inwardly digest the 1st 4 pages of Collin's Dictionary of English Quotations .... ?? Would it really encourage further research or simply serve to underline the enormity of the task they are undertaking ??

Well done Eric, I would have been proud to have delivered such a constructive lesson .. .. and in more general terms, as I've said before ... the generosity of the folk in this forum with their expertise, experience and above all patience is simply amazing and in my view, elevates this forum to another outstanding rating of which the members should be very proud.

Here ends the sermon, we shall now sing hymn number ..... Oh, No ... that's not this .. .. .. ..

S

Hi Musicman, I think in my earlier post, I was trying to say what you were so eloquently able to say. I think some people have a way with words, and others... well, no have way