Learning binary system (octal and hexa coming up soon too)

[ElectroNewby]

Damn, that thing is so much fun to do. I never knew I'd learn what the 0s and 1s mean

What will I use that system for in my futur carreer ? What do you use it for ?
I know assembly programming deals with the hardware directly, but I beleive I won't have any assembly programming in my electrical engineering technique... (not going telecom)

 

[3v0]

I have created a set of binary flash cards you can print.
http://www.rocklore.com/3v0/Teaching%20Tools/LearningBinary.zip

In most EE fields the possibility of working with micro controllers or digital logic is significant. These or any digital system use binary.

If you learn binary and hex as well as you know decimal math you will save time fumbling with it for the rest of your career.

 

[dknguyen]

Ummm...how did you get the idea that you'd only be dealing with assembler if you went telecom? Here in Alberta, it's MANDATORY to take a course that does nothing but teach you a particular variant of assembler. EE's work with hardware and assembler controls hardware directly. You can't know how a computer does useful work without knowing the thought process on how to code assembler.

You'll definately run into assembler at least once during your studies and learn it at least once. Whether you directly use assembler or not is a different story for a project is a different story.

 

[crutschow]

Any microprocessor uses binary when communicating with the world or the chips around it. Thus to understand computer interfaces, you need to understand binary. For example, when a microprocessor talks to an A/D or D/A converter it uses binary, either serial or parallel. So learning binary is a definite must, if you are going to work in any aspect of computers or digital electronics.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Don't Canadians learn binary at school?.

In the UK I'm pretty sure primary school kids do binary.

 

[dknguyen]

Don't Canadians learn binary at school?.

In the UK I'm pretty sure primary school kids do binary.

We learn about number systems in in elementary or junior high school. I seriously don't remember when though. In my experience we don't get taught binary specifically unless our program requires it in post-secondary. Quebec might be different from the rest of Canada though like many other things, and if that is the case it would seem worse off. But I highly doubt it. The OP probably has not dug a lot into electronics until he started his post-secondary studies and is unaware of what things exist and how they are used (which to be honest, isn't a very good sign of interest in the field).

But binary is used in all digital circuits and assembler will always pop up whenever those digital circuits become processors that execute instructions from memory. In turn, binary or a derivative of binary (like oct or hex) is used whenever you represent a number while programming pretty much anything.

 

[crutschow]

Octal and Hex are compact ways of writing down large binary numbers (a 32-bit string of binary numbers is pretty tedious to write). An Octal digit represents 3 binary bits and a Hex digit represents 4 binary bits. Hex is used more than Octal since two Hex digits can represent the value of one byte of data, which is the common unit of bit grouping in computers.

 

[Mikebits]

Octal and Hex are compact ways of writing down large binary numbers (a 32-bit string of binary numbers is pretty tedious to write). An Octal digit represents 3 binary bits and a Hex digit represents 4 binary bits. Hex is used more than Octal since two Hex digits can represent the value of one byte of data, which is the common unit of bit grouping in computers.

Agreed, I would much rather write FFFF than 1111111111111111

 

[ElectroNewby]

The OP probably has not dug a lot into electronics until he started his post-secondary studies and is unaware of what things exist and how they are used (which to be honest, isn't a very good sign of interest in the field).

I don't know what you mean. My "post-secondary" studies were before highschool and highschool here in Quebec is called secondary. Also, I will never have to deal with assembly, and probably won't have to deal with any computer language (even though I know a bit of C). What do you thing I'm going to school for if it's not to learn electronics and how things work ?

Be fair dude, we all start somewhere. I've just learned Ohm's law 4 weeks ago, how the hell do you want me to know assembly coding already? I don't know how assembly would be useful to me if I'm to work for an hydro-electrical central or something, I'm not going to be an engineer and work for IBM or something, and design things...

I'm an average person from corrupt-Quebec doing a technique, although I doubt you know what that is since I beleive it is just here that we do that (between highschool and university). Are you in China ? Things aren't the same everywhere, you are unaware of some things that exist too.

edit: and If I'm not interested in the course tell me how the do I get 100% everywhere, in my exams and love my homeworks ?

 

[MrAl]

Hi,


You will not regret learning binary and hex, although octal is of limited use these days. I would be very very surprised if you never run into hex or binary.

 

[dknguyen]

I don't know what you mean. My "post-secondary" studies were before highschool and highschool here in Quebec is called secondary.

"Post" means after. So post-secondary studies means studies after secondary/high school, not before. So there's no way your post-secondary studies could have been before high school.

Also, I will never have to deal with assembly, and probably won't have to deal with any computer language (even though I know a bit of C). What do you thing I'm going to school for if it's not to learn electronics and how things work ?

If you're in electrical engineering you're going to run into processors no matter what area you specialize in. To understand how a processor you need to understand how assembler works. To understand how to use a processor you need to know a programming language- any programming language. It's as simple as that.

It's actually mandatory over here in Alberta for EVERY engineer to take a high-level programming language like C. It doesn't matter of they are electrical, computer, mechanical, chemical, civil, mining, petroleum or environmental. I don't know what the others use it for though. I was told they somtimes use it to solve problems and run simulations for their own work. You don't have to use something in the field to have to learn it in university. That would make life so much easier. As an EE student I actually had to take mechanical, civil, and chemistry courses. Having to learn assembler and programming as an EE even if you're not going to ever need it seems downright reasonable by comparison.

Be fair dude, we all start somewhere. I've just learned Ohm's law 4 weeks ago, how the hell do you want me to know assembly coding already? I don't know how assembly would be useful to me if I'm to work for an hydro-electrical central or something, I'm not going to be an engineer and work for IBM or something, and design things...

The reason I'm harsh is because I did have to work with disinterested people on my senior design project team. They did no extracurricular work or learning outside of class. So when it came to building something, they had no idea how to apply what they had learned and they had no desire to do so. We essentially ended up doing a four-man project with just two people.

Have you ever heard of a fine arts student who never painted or played an instrument until they joined their program? It's the same with electrical engineering where nothing is stopping you from learning on your own and building little projects. All it takes is interest. No self-learning tends to mean no interest.

I never said you should have known assembler. But most people with any interest at all would know what the binary system is used for just by growing up with computers everywhere.

I'm an average person from corrupt-Quebec doing a technique, although I doubt you know what that is since I beleive it is just here that we do that (between highschool and university). Are you in China ? Things aren't the same everywhere,
you are unaware of some things that exist too.

Err...not sure where that came from but I never implied anything negative about Quebec, so no need to be oversensitive. I'm also not in China (not even Chinese!). If you see my location on the left it says I'm right here in Alberta born and raised. So no need to pull out the race card either.

I was just answering Nigel's question about when Canada taught binary number systems. Quebec DOES seem to have it's own way of organizing and running things. But we're both in Canada so it can't be all that different. For example, here we learn Ohm's Law in the last physics course in high school and you learned it in the first few weeks of university. Similar, but not the same- all it took was organizing things a bit differently. Not terribly sure why you took offense to that in particular.

edit: and If I'm not interested in the course tell me how the do I get 100% everywhere, in my exams and love my homeworks ?

Good grades don't indicate much about actually being able to apply what you learn nor do they indicate anything about a person's motivation. Some people seem to know what to study for and how to write exams but don't know how to do somethign useful with that information.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Octal and Hex are compact ways of writing down large binary numbers (a 32-bit string of binary numbers is pretty tedious to write). An Octal digit represents 3 binary bits and a Hex digit represents 4 binary bits. Hex is used more than Octal since two Hex digits can represent the value of one byte of data, which is the common unit of bit grouping in computers.

Hex is used now because computers are organised in multiples of 4 and 8 bits - in the distant past that wasn't so, and it made more semse to use a 3 bit system (octal) to match the word sizes in use. There seems little point in learning octal these days, but if you can understand the principle of different bases, then it's trivial anyway.

 

[Jaguarjoe]

On a bad day it takes about one minute to learn binary and ten minutes to learn hex. What do you do for the rest of the class? Octal went out with the GE 312 computer 40 years ago.

 

[ElectroNewby]

For example, here we learn Ohm's Law in the last physics course in high school and you learned it in the first few weeks of university. Similar, but not the same- all it took was organizing things a bit differently. Not terribly sure why you took offense to that in particular.

Now I know were we had a misunderstanding. I'm not in University and never will Here, what I do is called a technique, it is not properly said true electrical engineering, but I could continue my studies after my technique (a DEC) and go to the university.

I'm not going to be an engineer, but that's fine with me, the job still looks awesome, fun and very well paid.
My course has many names; electrotechnic, industrial electronical, electrodynamics and instrumentations (2 programs combined).

When I'll graduate, I should be able to work in an industrie and if I work with an engineer, be his slave lol

I do not know how you call that in the rest of Canada or USA, but I'm starting from scratch. I did learn about Ohm's law in highschool, however that's was pretty much about it. I may have to repair automates and stuff, I guess that's where binary comes into play, but I'm 100% sure we don't even learn how to program microcontrollers (although I'm I'll learn it on my own since I've learned a bit of C for that purpose)

Also, I know for sure that we won't deal with anything with RFs, but that part really interests me, I'd have to go in the option "telecom" next year, but I'm heading toward the industrial option. I'll still make it to the RFs on my own because it picks the lock of my curiosity and want to be able to do some "research and devellopement".

Quebec's school system is very weird. I would suggest that it is very good, but we do not go to the university right away. But in the other hand, I think that we get to spend a little less time in them, so maybe it gets all balanced anyway.

As for the "corrupt" part, that was a wink, haven't you heard about that McLean magazine last week, calling us the most corrupt province of canada ? lol I don't mind I said that for fun.

Finally, binaries are fun to work with. Can't wait to learn the hexa system very soon. (And matrix)

 

[3v0]

On a bad day it takes about one minute to learn binary and ten minutes to learn hex. What do you do for the rest of the class? Octal went out with the GE 312 computer 40 years ago.

That works if you want to spend the rest of you life counting on your fingers. Many people waste time and make unnecessary errors because they only spend a few minutes understanding rather then memorizing hex and binary numbers.

To know them you need to be able to translate between binary and hex without effort or calculation. That is why I created a set of lash card.

http://www.rocklore.com/3v0/Teaching%20Tools/LearningBinary.zip Has flash cards for Binary/Hex and Decimal/Hex conversion.

 

[dknguyen]

No I don't read magazines like Macleans. I'm more the National Geographic type. The most I see of that kind of stuff is if it shows up in the newspaper.

Yeh I find RF real hard but apparently so does everyone else so the few that understand it well are quite well paid it seems.

Yeah, in high school I also only learned Ohm's law in high school. It'd be nice if they taught something more fundamentally useful circuit analysis instead but then you'd need calculus first which is quite unlikely because you'd have to work in 2 math courses and a physics course that are a chain of pre-requisites into 2 semesters. Unless you took some Grade 12 math courses while you were in Grade 11, and seriously...who does that?

I took Avionics engineering techology for a while (which is to become a technologist rather than an engineer)for a while and they had to learn to program too. I don't know if that's the same as a technique or not.

 

[Jaguarjoe]

Understanding how it works is key for me. My binary/octal/decimal/hex conversion memory resides in my TI calculator and my windows calculator. So far, they've never been wrong, a lot different than my 63yo brain is.

 

[3v0]

63 huh. As a rule I try not argue with people that are older.

BUT learning at least binary to hex would be good for you brain. Use it or loose it sort of thing. Heck even if you have lost some it is possible to improve on what you currently have.

You only need memorize 16 relationships. Six are trivial. About half the rest are easy like 0011 being three and 0111 seven. Some people have trouble with B and D. B is 1011 and D is 1101. You can see they only differ by the center two bit. B is the smaller number 1011 and D the larger 1101.

0000 0 trivial
0001 1 trivial bit-value
0010 2 trivial bit-value
0011 3
0100 4 trivial bit-value
0101 5
0110 6
0111 7
1000 8 trivial bit-value
1001 9
1010 A
1011 B
1100 C
1101 D
1110 E
1111 F trivial

If you can not trust you mind to memorize these you might be making mistakes in using a calculator too. To put it bluntly. Age is a very poor excuse. The older we get the more we need to challenge the brain.

 

[ElectroNewby]

63 huh. As a rule I try not argue with people that are older.

BUT learning at least binary to hex would be good for you brain. Use it or loose it sort of thing. Heck even if you have lost some it is possible to improve on what you currently have.

You only need memorize 16 relationships. Six are trivial. About half the rest are easy like 0011 being three and 0111 seven. Some people have trouble with B and D. B is 1011 and D is 1101. You can see they only differ by the center two bit. B is the smaller number 1011 and D the larger 1101.

0000 0 trivial
0001 1 trivial bit-value
0010 2 trivial bit-value
0011 3
0100 4 trivial bit-value
0101 5
0110 6
0111 7
1000 8 trivial bit-value
1001 9
1010 A
1011 B
1100 C
1101 D
1110 E
1111 F trivial

If you can not trust you mind to memorize these you might be making mistakes in using a calculator too. To put it bluntly. Age is a very poor excuse. The older we get the more we need to challenge the brain.

Very interesting.
I downloaded your flash cards too, I beleive that'll be a great help.
thanks !