Drone swarms. What's your thoughts on the tech and applications good and bad?

[nsaspook]

nsaspook

Where is that a pic of? what an amazing place!!! I would love to visit and photograph around there. Amazing picture

Mt. Hood Oregon.

 

[tcmtech]

a school kid beating 3rd year university students, just isnt on.

I can totally relate to that. Years ago when I went back to college a second time for engineering I found out that stuff I played with for poops and giggles was beyond what some professors with doctorates were struggling with and I was knocking out their research with almost all analog concepts that should have been dead easy to model and manipulate given the amount of digital processing they were using to try and force things to work the way they just won't.

Met with one and his whole concern was not in how can I make his concept work but who taught me and what classes I had. When I said I had none and that all of my knowledge came from hands on personal study and research the conversation pretty much ended right there. Rather one of my first experiences with seeing first hand just how butthurt and ignorant some high level people can be.

I guess they don't like hearing someone tell them that their $100+K research project can be rivaled or even exceed by a $25 in radio shack parts and a gutted battery charger and you're willing to throw together a crude demonstration model right in front of them while anyone who cares to watch looks on just to prove your point.

 

[large_ghostman]

or, better yet, if you knew what the FCC ID number was on the drones in the swarm, the FCC ID number also leads you to the certification data, which has the operating frequency.... they can't swarm unless they can talk to each other.

Jim is the guy to answer this, but i know on the radio kit i used, it channel hops on a frequency around 868mHz, besides no idiot with a swarm is going to use regular frequencies and register them! try and get military frequencies for a drone swarm!

EMP

Hmmm, needs power and a fair bit, but would be hard to protect a drone against. Same as a big Faraday cage or even a normal cave system. Make enough noise or take the main signal away and your in with a chance. Useful discussion from many sides.

For me i still think of what could be done with what i started, so despite the chat being about killer drones, the actual problems for and against are similar to the things we actually faced. In my case how do you locate someone who is unconscious in a building likely filled with smoke and on the floor, how do you tell its a person. And everything related to that, in this scenario the only difference is what happens once you locate the person. My drone would drop you band aid, this drone will kill you, but getting to you is the same problem.

I doubt i will revisit the project, the next step for me was a new fuel for glow engines to act like generators for the electric motors. I got fairly far with this, then gave in. One thing i know deep down, i can keep an electric drone in the air for an hour with a glow engine on modified fuel. Diesel alot longer but i didnt/dont have a model diesel engine, plus the fuel i was working on wouldnt work anyway on them. But tiny glow engines can power reasonable drone motors, the trick was finding a low RPM high V output motor.

The best i found was from a 1973 tape to tape computer reel motor, second best was a funny Chinese motor for low voltage microwave turn tables. The fuel is methanol based (partly) ethanol and a mix of things, you needed to power the glow plug at low RPM but at medium revs it was self sustaining and high torque. Yes i am aware ALL model aircraft people say its impossible and i cheat. Well i dont cheat and the video wasnt messed with.

The fuel isnt perfect, it would need work. but electric main motors are the way, i just wanted small batteries and the main power from a on board generator. I wanted 2 hours of medium speed flight time and a lift capacity of 15Kg, i got 53 mins flight time 10kg lift (including drone and fuel). then stopped when money and enthusiasm ran out.

 

[Mickster]

I cant find my post now, but back when i did it, the drone had to.....

I remember reading that, you need to brush up on your Search-Fu young man.
Your post where you did the write-up about it is here:
https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/stuffed-my-project-up.146902/page-3#post-1249515
From this thread:
https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/stuffed-my-project-up.146902/

Regards.

 

[large_ghostman]

Yes i do! also i hadnt realized i didnt post the end product!!! OMG....

I want to make progress on the bio flow reactor first, thats a work thing and time critical, but i have booked marked that post. Please remind me after the bioflow to post up the pics and vids of it working, at the time there was an issue with the school and rights etc. none of that is an issue now so i would love to share the footage of it and the pics of the build, i will dig it all out when i get a chance.

TOP TIP
Not sure if any or most you already know this, but there is a program called mandeline, its for organizing documents etc, its free, but it syncs up online with a cloud, you pay for space over 2gb used. BUT you can turn the sync off, this is what i do. Its great for data sheets and general tat we collect. Since that project i use it to organize my files and papers, i didnt use it on the old laptop so will manually dig out the files for the project. Funny but at the time drones were not cheap or easy to buy, so now its really old tech, except the vision system and the self fly, thats still only just becoming mainstream.

The last work i did on quad and hexa copters was using a system like flies use for vision, and it uses different software written in python mostly. Superior to the stereo system i used back then, also modern chips would give you much better options, you can buy the flying boards easy now, back then i built mine from scratch, i wouldnt do it now lol. But they still got the issue of flight time, even the £300 batteries wont give much more than 20 mins on a hexa copter.

The glow engine idea has real promise, you still need a battery to even things out. But you increase flight time a great deal, i did try a petrol 4 stroke model engine but it didnt work as well, the two stroke cheapo glow engine works great, ditch the hi (**** forgot the name!!!) its hard to get over 30% here anyway, but i found although its in most model engine fuel it can be ditched.
I used synthetic 2 stroke oil, methanol and ethanol mixed with a few solvents, alot of bang for the buck so to speak .

Also i found low rpm and the fuel could make the engine cut out, so at low rpm the glow lighter comes on to keep the plug hot, as soon as your near the mid point you dont need it on. Unlike how its donr now, i used pulsed electric motors, so out the six only two are ever actually drawing power. obviously we are talking very high frequency switching or you cant get it to fly! I cheated with this, i used Matlab and simulink to work out the pattern of which motor is on when. But it allows you to use a generator as you dont have 6 motors pulling 200W or whatever each, at the same time, so the generator only has to deliver enough to run two at once, hence the battery to smooth it out.

I didnt do enough to tell you much more than that, I totally believe its the way forward for drones, as is motors you can move. Fixed motors are not as good. I miss the drone stuff, but they are so cheap and common now there isnt much reason to do anything with them for me. It was clever when i had a go at it, now its kinda Meah.

If i ever get free time again............Rockets, thats where i head next. Googles competition for live moon streaming . Except what happens when someone (likely india) gets a small craft to live stream from the moon? supposing it finds no evidence we were ever there!! Cat and pigeons. Funny but the foil hat in me more and more thinks it was faked. The more I learn the more I become sure it just wasnt possible to do back then.

Google have run the comp for what 3-5 years, loads of people trying for it, all finding it hard to do despite the massive advances in tech. You seriously got to ask just how feasible is it that they did it with something 200 times less powerful than a smart phone. AND how come the bloody space station is so big you can see in the sky, yet no pics of the stuff we left on the moon surface???

AFAIK no one with a telescope takes pics of the rovers etc.... And they were not on the dark side, so how come?

Ok tin foil hat off again

 

[Pommie]

I doubt i will revisit the project, the next step for me was a new fuel for glow engines to act like generators for the electric motors. I got fairly far with this, then gave in. One thing i know deep down, i can keep an electric drone in the air for an hour with a glow engine on modified fuel. Diesel alot longer but i didnt/dont have a model diesel engine, plus the fuel i was working on wouldnt work anyway on them. But tiny glow engines can power reasonable drone motors, the trick was finding a low RPM high V output motor.

I did some calculations using a 30cc 4 stroke petrol engine (OS GF30 I think) and calculated that it could produce nearly 2kW of continuous power using less than 1kG of fuel per hour. 2kW can easily keep 15kG aloft in a quad. The quad itself would weigh around 7kG, giving a flight time of 8 hours. The biggest problem is the generator - I played with brushless 3 phase motors due to their efficiency as motors. Not so as generators if you use the normal rectifier capacitor setup. You need to do 3 phase power correction in order to achieve similar results as a generator. I did play with this and I could achieve 90% efficiency out of BLDC motors.

In Australia, people (mainly tourists) get lost quite often. Image, a truck with 2 dozen drones that can deploy in a formation and search large areas for people. Or, a drone that carries 1kG of fuel and 5kG of pesticide that can return to base to restock both. It could spray a field at 2AM when there's no wind to cause overspray and it can do it unmonitored and in the dark. Once you get the higher payload offered by petrol power the possibilities are endless.

Mike.
Edit, The glow fuel additive is Nitromethane.

 

[large_ghostman]

I did some calculations using a 30cc 4 stroke petrol engine (OS GF30 I think) and calculated that it could produce nearly 2kW of continuous power using less than 1kG of fuel per hour. 2kW can easily keep 15kG aloft in a quad. The quad itself would weigh around 7kG, giving a flight time of 8 hours. The biggest problem is the generator - I played with brushless 3 phase motors due to their efficiency as motors. Not so as generators if you use the normal rectifier capacitor setup. You need to do 3 phase power correction in order to achieve similar results as a generator. I did play with this and I could achieve 90% efficiency out of BLDC motors.

In Australia, people (mainly tourists) get lost quite often. Image, a truck with 2 dozen drones that can deploy in a formation and search large areas for people. Or, a drone that carries 1kG of fuel and 5kG of pesticide that can return to base to restock both. It could spray a field at 2AM when there's no wind to cause overspray and it can do it unmonitored and in the dark. Once you get the higher payload offered by petrol power the possibilities are endless.

Mike.

Nike i will go into the workshop first thing in the morning and try and dig out the motor i used as a generator, honestly it was by far the best. All i know is it came from a very very old back up tape unit. They were used back in the early 70's for main frame back up. the motors are custom made, not sure exactly of the type but very low rpm kicks out a huge amount of energy.

The engines i used are around 10cc or smaller!

Once i get this bio thing out the way, i will talk to you more about this. I think maybe there is a chance we could help each other. At least if nothing else i have a large amount of data i collected, the results were good. Especially when you consider that to me 10cc was by far the largest engine i used. Wonder what Amazon would pay us

 

[tcmtech]

But tiny glow engines can power reasonable drone motors, the trick was finding a low RPM high V output motor.

The best i found was from a 1973 tape to tape computer reel motor, second best was a funny Chinese motor for low voltage microwave turn tables. The fuel is methanol based (partly) ethanol and a mix of things, you needed to power the glow plug at low RPM but at medium revs it was self sustaining and high torque. Yes i am aware ALL model aircraft people say its impossible and i cheat. Well i dont cheat and the video wasnt messed with.

Some time ago when my brother was into the bigger RC stuff he and I theorized on that concept but our idea was to use a common PM BLDC motor as the generator/alternator given they come in speed and voltage ratings that can be easily be matched to the RPM peak torque bands of most of the little glow engines.

Never got around to it so I have no idea how practical it would have been but I don't see any reason it couldn't be done that way being if it would have worked the micro genset power density would have been more than adequate for experimenting with on larger RC stuff.

I've often considered revisiting the concept but to use a larger string trimmer or small chainsaw engine and mini automotive alternator to make a mini engine driven battery charger/booster unit from but for me, being I tend to stay on top of the battery and starting systems maintenance for everything around here, the need for such a higher powered portable unit is unwarranted.

 

[large_ghostman]

Those strimmer engines dont have the power, funny enough the 10cc RC petrol engines have more grunt for this kind of thing, power to weight corrected obviously.

 

[large_ghostman]

The real trick is not to have all motors on at the same time, a bit like pwm but more complicated.

 

[Pommie]

If i ever get free time again............Rockets, thats where i head next. Googles competition for live moon streaming . Except what happens when someone (likely india) gets a small craft to live stream from the moon? supposing it finds no evidence we were ever there!! Cat and pigeons. Funny but the foil hat in me more and more thinks it was faked. The more I learn the more I become sure it just wasnt possible to do back then.

Google have run the comp for what 3-5 years, loads of people trying for it, all finding it hard to do despite the massive advances in tech. You seriously got to ask just how feasible is it that they did it with something 200 times less powerful than a smart phone. AND how come the bloody space station is so big you can see in the sky, yet no pics of the stuff we left on the moon surface???

Earlier than that, they built an atomic bomb and even today with our advanced technology, lots of countries with massive budgets still can't get close.

It's funny how we now assume that you need a computer for even simple tasks. In the old days, when the did the moon landing etc, they still used computers but they tended to be female humans.

I'm still amazed at when some things were done. First electrical cable from UK to Australia? Hard to believe but it was 1872.

Mike.
Edit, how does the spoiler button work?

 

[Mickster]

The glow engine idea has real promise, you still need a battery to even things out. But you increase flight time a great deal, i did try a petrol 4 stroke model engine but it didnt work as well, the two stroke cheapo glow engine works great, ditch the hi (**** forgot the name!!!) its hard to get over 30% here anyway, but i found although its in most model engine fuel it can be ditched.

Nitro?

If i ever get free time again............Rockets, thats where i head next. Googles competition for live moon streaming . Except what happens when someone (likely india) gets a small craft to live stream from the moon? supposing it finds no evidence we were ever there!! Cat and pigeons. Funny but the foil hat in me more and more thinks it was faked. The more I learn the more I become sure it just wasnt possible to do back then.

Google have run the comp for what 3-5 years, loads of people trying for it, all finding it hard to do despite the massive advances in tech. You seriously got to ask just how feasible is it that they did it with something 200 times less powerful than a smart phone. AND how come the bloody space station is so big you can see in the sky, yet no pics of the stuff we left on the moon surface???

AFAIK no one with a telescope takes pics of the rovers etc.... And they were not on the dark side, so how come?

Ok tin foil hat off again

You looking for a smack in the mouth from Buzz?
I'm undecided on that too, there was so much at stake during the arms race/cold war and if it took a lie to bring an end to it, then it was justified.
I'm never going to know for sure, or be completely satisfied with what we are told simply because it is what we are told.
For me, I would have to get up there and see for myself, but that's not likely to ever happen, so I find myself kinda on the fence.
There's that wanting-to-believe-it-was-possible-back-then in me, but with the current advances in tech we have had since then, where is the unequivocal proof?
We have had satellites which can read a license plate for many years....

EDIT:
Beaten to the 'Nitro' by Pommie, whilst trying to be as un-weird as possible with the moon stuff.

 

[tcmtech]

Those strimmer engines dont have the power, funny enough the 10cc RC petrol engines have more grunt for this kind of thing, power to weight corrected obviously.

The string trimmer concept was just going to be for charging normal automotive type batteries, like a booster pack but with way more working capacity, regarding actually charging anything.

Not RC flying machine related.

 

[Mickster]

I may get kicked in the nuts for this, but why not use a fidget spinner gen.....
Sorry.

 

[large_ghostman]

Yes guys!! Nitro! I have a thing with words, sometimes they just go........ Its really annoying! Last week it was pencil! for two days I couldnt think what the thing was called. Apparently its something to do with how i am wired and the aspergers. I list things in my head and sometimes words get on the wrong list, so when i retrieve the list it isnt there.

Good point about the cable, and many other things, but the moon is a special case. If we did it then, there is no reason it should be as hard as it is now.
In the UK nitro is next to impossible to get, hence why i went looking for a better fuel. MAPLIN has gone bust today!! Relevant because the motor i used as the generator was turned by a maplin gearbox!!! 100:1 ratio i think, it came as a kit where you could choose to build the thing to many ratios.

If i was 15 again i would be on this once more, but these days now i am old and nearly 18 i got to make a living. So i need to get the work out the way first and then dig my quad stuff out again, actually i kind of like the idea of going back to this. When i mentioned it last time i was told no way, really good to hear others have done the maths and it can work. I wont hijack here anymore, a few days or couple of weeks and i will open another thread.

I got loads of info why a tiny glow outdid the petrol engines, not easy to explain and i am not sure i see the reason, but the figures speak for themselves. Also this time i will dig up info on the motor i used as the generator.

 

[large_ghostman]

I may get kicked in the nuts for this, but why not use a fidget spinner gen.....
Sorry.

Too powerful and we not smart enough to understand them properly apparently.

 

[large_ghostman]

If only we had a fidget generator expert to guide us , but we dont, so we are left with nuclear power or nothing . One day maybe some clever fellow will come along and teach us about them.

 

[Mickster]

Yes guys!! Nitro! I have a thing with words, sometimes they just go........ Its really annoying! Last week it was pencil! for two days I couldnt think what the thing was called. Apparently its something to do with how i am wired and the aspergers. I list things in my head and sometimes words get on the wrong list, so when i retrieve the list it isnt there.

I have the same problem with buying things on Banggood (not taking the pizzle out of you - but out of me!) - the word I should remember, but can't do is 'No'!
Concerned I might be turning into Julian Ilett...
Alice? Who the *#@^ is Alice?

 

[large_ghostman]

I have the same problem with buying things on Banggood (not taking the pizzle out of you - but out of me!) - the word I should remember, but can't do is 'No'!
Concerned I might be turning into Julian Ilett...
Alice? Who the *#@^ is Alice?

Duuno any alice or any other female other than my own GF honest!!

Yeah No isnt a word i use on websites with goodies.

 

[Mickster]

Guess I need to explain the above.
Julian Ilett gets boat-loads of stuff from Banggood and does YT reviews, some stuff is sent FOC from BG for him to review, as he's obviously maintaining VIP5.
He also gets stuff from eBay. A lot of stuff from eBay. A lot of stuff from Alice1101983, whom he mentions a lot in his vids.

There used to be a popular song about living next door to Alice -

Then came this (NSFW) version -
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