Consideration of the Ethics and Safety Aspects of Commercial Products.

[ericgibbs]

hi,
In a current thread, concerns have been raised regarding OP's asking questions that could have a bearing on the safety of a commercial product.

My own view is that the company who manufacture and sell a commercial product are wholly responsible for the product meeting the statuary safety regulations.
For example: a product that could affect airline safety would be subject to either CAA or FAA regulation.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this subject.
Eric

 

[hexreader]

I was always taught that Safety is everybody's responsibility.

CAA and FAA monitor safety standards and have power to stop unsafe practices after they happen, and yes, the provider is required to meet requirements that are set....

....But this does not absolve everybody else of all responsibility. It is everyone's duty to report any safety hazard that they see. It is for lawyers to work out whether failure to report a hazard is illegal, or just immoral.

Failure to save a life might be seen as almost as bad as deliberate taking of a life.

At least that is my understanding, from what I have been taught at the air-traffic safety workshops and H&S (Health and Safety) workshops that I have been required to attend...

In the same vain... I would say that helping a forum member to mess up aircraft parts might be seen as contributing to a possible hazard. I doubt that the lawyers could make a case to make a forum member liable, except maybe in the states?

 

[audioguru]

A TV documentary showed that some airliners crashed or almost crashed due to FAKE faulty parts.
They found the same fake parts on the airliner owned by The President Of United States!

Genuine parts are expensive and hard to find. Then come the fake-makers to fill the gap between having or not having.

Maybe the airliner electronic circuits board repairs recently on these forums posted by a technician who knows nothing about electronics or how to repair them (forcing a logic level?) are "repaired products" sold by the fakers. No guarantee. No regulation. But cheap and available.

 

[ericgibbs]

hi hex,
I agree, if I was aware of a breach of a Safety regulation that affected passenger safety, I would report it to the CAA.
[I once worked for a company that made products to the CAA certification]

The other thread I referred too, could be considered as affecting the inherent safety of a product by the OP asking technical questions on an open forum for advice on how to repair the product.

Whats your take on that.?
E

 

[cowboybob]

Always difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff.

This particular "repair tech" at an un-named and nebulous "repair facility" (as loose as monikers get) rightly deserves our caution and, if I may be so bold, our disdain.

We'll never be able to discern the true motivation for an anonymous OPs' queries.

But we should, generally, see our way to ostracize those who repeatly refuse to engage us by utterly ignoring our requests, comments and questions. This, to me, is behavior that screams 'FRAUD".

 

[audioguru]

Maybe the airliner electronics "technician" posting here has a fake diploma?

1) I saw a "mechanic" try to remove the decoration bolts on the hub cap of my car instead of removing the hub cap then removing real bolts on the wheel.
2) The oil filter on my car fell off on the highway a few minutes after a "mechanic" changed the oil and filter.
3) On the TV news frequently wheels came off trucks on the highway and kill people. The wheels were installed by a "mechanic".
4) One time I saw huge tires lying on the highway at night. I don't know if the tires came off or fell off a truck.

I called the local police and reported that a car wheel was lying on a road I could not reach (one-way exit of the highway). The local police said that they can do nothing because the highway is governed by the provincial police, not the city police. The wheel was about 5m from the city/provincial boundary.

 

[JimB]

I was always taught that Safety is everybody's responsibility.

In the UK oil industry it is generally accepted that anyone can stop a job if they see something happening which is unsafe.
I was once in the odd position of seeing what appeared to be an unsafe crane lift on a site in Italy.
What to do?
The lift was taking place a couple of hundred metres away, by the time I got there to tell them of the problem, the lift would be over. (Or it would have crashed before I got there).
Would the guys doing the lift understand what this crazy Brit was on about if I had tried to tell them.
My Italian - minimal, their English? probably less.
I could not find the site Safety Man, who did speak passable English.

Happily, the lift was a success. But the next time they did the same thing, did they get away with it?

JimB

 

[ronsimpson]

The wheel was about 5m from the city/provincial boundary.

If you had stopped and backed up to remove the tire you would have got a ticket by the provincial police.
The city police just might have gone 5m out of the way to collect $50 for 'unsafe driving'.

The world can not be made a safe place. We all have a small responsibility.

 

[hexreader]

Whats your take on that.?

I would avoid giving advice to someone who might use it to do harm.

Interesting dilemmas shown from the other posts here. We all see bad practice, we suspect that we should maybe report it, but if we did, it would cause bad feeling, and would do no good in the end.

Guess it is a judgement call in the end. Morals are not easy.

Being "in the right" is a very lonely place to be.

How can I criticise others, when I have taken a few short-cuts in the past myself?

 

[audioguru]

If you had stopped and backed up to remove the tire you would have got a ticket by the provincial police.
The city police just might have gone 5m out of the way to collect $50 for 'unsafe driving'.

The world can not be made a safe place. We all have a small responsibility.

I did my duty and reported the problem to the authorities. I also explained the danger it was at night.
But the wheel was still on the highway off ramp THE NEXT DAY!

 

[hexreader]

I did my duty and reported the problem to the authorities.

In my mind you did the right thing.

If the authorities did not follow up, then only a saint would go the extra mile and report the authority to a higher authority (who in turn may not care)

I would consider your duty discharged. .... and you went further than most people would.

But who am I to pass judgement? - I am nobody - just hoping to make you feel proud of your actions.

...well I am proud of you at least, for what it is worth.

Still reading this thread with interest, to see if there is any wise words for coping with the moral dilemma posed.....

 

[hexreader]

In the UK oil industry it is generally accepted that anyone can stop a job if they see something happening which is unsafe.

Yes, but how many people would be brave enough to actually halt a job, knowing that it would cost millions of dollars and loss of friendships/job/sanity?

Whistle blowers usually have a very rough ride.

Interesting thread...

 

[ronsimpson]

I did my duty and reported the problem to the authorities. I also explained the danger it was at night.
But the wheel was still on the highway off ramp THE NEXT DAY!

When I hit the tire and damaged my car I had bad thoughts about the trucker, the police (RCMP) and you.
I am not blaming you. Just saying..............

 

[audioguru]

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police (on horses, not motorcycles) are in only a few cities in Canada. None are near me.

I was going to post a dirty photo about the RCMP I found in Google Images but decided not to.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Yes, but how many people would be brave enough to actually halt a job, knowing that it would cost millions of dollars and loss of friendships/job/sanity?

An ex-workmate's younger brother was a CNC machinist, and worked for a local company who make parts for Rolls Royce jet engines - and as part of his job he got moved to quality control for a day - he rejected every single part that he examined as 'out of specification'

Now these were parts that cost in the thousands, but they didn't quite meet the required spec so he just scrapped them all

They never put him on quality control again!.

 

[jpanhalt]

Eric,

I agree completely with your position with a few clear exceptions. When giving advice, individuals should be left to exercise their own judgment.

Now, for the case on point, there is no proof that the OP was working on the guidance system for an aircraft, but there were some hints that might be the case. I think the expressions of surprise and dismay by everyone following that thread were just a human response. Maybe they were OT, but you stepped in and easily redirected the discussion. By any assessment, that was an extreme example, and I don't think making more rules is the best response to addressing such things that are so far from the mean.

Exceptions to the above:
Anything that is clearly harmful, dangerous, racist, pornographic, or illegal. Thus, how to bypass security measures on copyrighted work is one example. How to remotely trigger bombs would be another. Devices that would be used to torture or in violation of international standards for ethical human or animal experimentation would be another be yet another. This list is not meant to be exhaustive.

How to address the exceptions:
I think our moderators have done a superb job stopping problematic threads and tangential discussions. All that members should do is report any thread they consider problematic and state why.

John

 

[ericgibbs]

I agree completely with your position with a few clear exceptions. When giving advice, individuals should be left to exercise their own judgment.

hi John,
Referring to the 'other' thread, I did not complain about the technical advice given by members, what I did consider OT, were the adverse personal comments made against the OP by some members.

The rules do say that members should try to keep on topic, I know that we all bend the rules from time to time, but as Moderators we have to act when the off topic comments become personal against the OP.

Anything that is clearly harmful, dangerous, racist, pornographic, or illegal. Thus, how to bypass security measures on copyrighted work is one example.

On the above, we try to deal with 'racist, porno and illegal' before it gets onto the forums, the other 'harmful and dangerous' quite often do not show as such until a number of posts have been made to the Forums. If a thread develops into this type, the moderators take the appropriate action.

Thanks for your input.
Eric

 

[large_ghostman]

Billy isnt working with aircraft, he isnt working. At 13 even i can tell it just wouldn't happen like that, the circuit looks cheap, certainly cheaper than paying someone all day for a few days/weeks, just to find a fault in a logic chip. Maye some kind of RC Aircraft? Or project?
but real life company? nah. Surely they would have gone broke a long time ago. As for all the other stuff, i am with dad on that, if it isnt right then speak up loud and clear. Then again some safety is slightly different, I asked about a jacobs ladder, and was told it was unsafe to do it. Had someone told me to go for it, and i had built it, then its my fault if i get hurt, i was warned. If the OP (Billy) kills someone with his lack of knowledge, thats different. The other people never had a say in it. But again its all pointless but interesting subject, the op does not do the job he says he does.

 

[ericgibbs]

Speaking up loud and clear is not a problem in my book, providing its guiding the OP towards a 'positive' conclusion or result, which can be done on topic.

We should not confuse 'safety' with good common sense.

For example, if someone experienced asks for a second opinion on a topic thats potentially hazardous, a fellow experienced member will couch his reply in terms the OP can understand.
If its obvious that OP is inexperienced and is likely not to be able to follow or understand any detailed advice given,IMHO its better just to say 'dont do it' until you have knowledge required to do it safely.

I would not expect someone of 13 years to be in a position to give sound technical advice on what is safe and what is not, when he has no idea of the caliber of the guy he is giving it too.

Also how can you be sure that the OP the op does not do the job he says he does. ?

E

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

An for another view entirely:

For the moment, lets leave "troubleshooting" out of the argument.

Let's say that the person can follow directions, can take things apart and put them back together again with no parts leftover, has the proper tools, Knows how to re-work a board, The things that get fixed must pass certain tests as suggested from the "simulator".

So, we don't necessarily have shoddy work.

What we have, I don't know. The "group" could be dysfunctional.

i.e. The tech going to the manager and saying, I spent too much time on this, can you assign someone else. This "someone else" does the troubleshooting, possibly alone for a while and then "teaches" the lower tech what he did and why. The "lower tech" could then complete the repair and test.

I had a conversation with friends and workmates that at times "A little bit of my time can be be worth a lot of yours".
Two real stories:

Two PHD electrical engineers spent an entire weekend trying to figure out why a test fixture sparked. I solved it in 5 minutes the following day.
A bad ground in an electrical outlet.

A friend (self-employed in the industry) gave up as to why an aspect of a design he did for himself didn't work. I had the design info and even a blank PCB. He concluded that the chips were defective and got replacement chips. He then described to me a valid test. I had an AH HA moment and checked the logic levels on the datasheet. For some of the inputs to the chips, the logic was TTL compatible, for the CHIP SELECTS it was CMOS. So, a level shift and a firmware change fixed it. I'm in the US and he is in Australia. It's possible that I might build it, but it does use some obsolete chips.

One manager of mine, I think knew this and he knew it was good for the unit. My requirement, was to report things I did that would take longer than 15 min to a half hour.

This does become a problem and did when you, yourself have a huge project to do and are supervising someone else at the same time.

The other one counted beans and that appeared the extent of it. He's like "Don't help anybody" unless you get permission, yet people still came to me. He could count the important beans electronically and complained that when other people did "as aspect" of my job, he counted more beans. The job had aspects that were uncountable and my quality of work was probably too high.