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AVR vrs PIC (I don't care)

Discussion in 'Microcontrollers' started by 3v0, Jan 27, 2014.

  1. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    There is a difference between being a fanboy and using one vendor's product even most or all the time. The fanboy would have everyone use what he uses. The rest of us 'don't care'.
     
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  2. NorthGuy

    NorthGuy Well-Known Member

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    It is definitely easier to use one product than use several ones. If you started using something, switching would be stupid. It is better, however, to use more popular product than to use a rare one. If the product you have chosen is getting more and more popular, you benefit from the popularity. Therefore, it is in your best interest to convince other people to go with the same product as you did.
     
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  3. Jon Wilder

    Jon Wilder Active Member

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    Personally, I'm a huge opponent of kits like Arduino that take the "instant results" approach. Two downsides to this approach -

    1) If everyone got instant results and never made mistakes along the way, no one would actually learn anything (we learn from our mistakes...this was proven centuries ago)

    2) It creates the fallacy that the student has somehow bypassed many years of a learning curve and have magically become instant engineers overnight

    Case in point...the Arduino. Wow...you wrote a "sketch" (where on earth did this term come from???) and got it to work on an Arduino the first time without looking at a datasheet? Hmm...try that with a PICmicro, Atmel AVR, or an Intel 8051 vanilla style on a breadboard and see how far you get.

    Results are something earned through learning. Not handed to you on a silver platter all because you expressed some sort of interest in a given field. Results are a rite of passage...something to show for all the hard work and effort you put into learning. If you're not willing to put in the effort to learn, you don't deserve the positive results that come with learning.

    Bottom line...you're not going to magically bypass the learning curve with instant results. You'll get the result, but you won't actually learn anything from it.
     
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  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. misterT

    misterT Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I know what you mean, and like you said, the arduino "sketch" -thingie makes it an "instant result" product. I think the hardware is good. Minimalistic makes it cheap, usb-bootloader makes it even cheaper and usable for beginners, and the well designed "form factor" with "shields" is a good concept.
    Just why they had to do the "sketch" IDE?? They could have spent the time writing good tutorials and example codes.
     
  6. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    Things like arduino and flowcode are like training wheels. At some point you have to take them away.
     
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  7. DerStrom8

    DerStrom8 Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    For the most part that's true. Then again, if someone is only using a microcontroller just to get some odd project working, and don't plan to work with them in the future, then there isn't a need to take away the training wheels. However, personally I'd recommend learning uCs anyway, even if you think you'll never use them, because you'll never know when something might pop up and having that information would be critical.
     
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  8. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    Agreed. I was thinking along the line of people interested in more then the odd project.
     
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  9. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    someone on here told me when I started, if you want to look clever use arduino, if you want to be clever use pic's. But there are way way better chips out there than just pics or arduino.
    But I dont like microchip forcing people to use XC8 and mplabX. try and down load a student or trial version of C18 ;). On the old pc we had Hi Tech IDE, I really liked that,but its gone.
     
  10. NorthGuy

    NorthGuy Well-Known Member

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    Just a thought.

    Could it be that people who spent a lot of time and effort learning something just get jaleous of people getting the same result without an effort?

    Same way as a guy who spent years learning how to cut trees with an ax sees someone doing it with a chainsaw?
     
  11. Inquisitive

    Inquisitive Super Moderator

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    No wonder I could not cut as much wood with the chainsaw as my neighbor with the axe. When I took the chainsaw back to the store demanding a refund the salesman started the motor up. I asked him what that noise was.
     
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  12. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    The difference being, the person who did the learning dosnt have to wait for someone else to do it first, he dosnt have to wait for it to be invented or brought out. So it isnt jealousy.
     
  13. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    It does not hold water that a guy who knows what he is doing would be jealous of the dude using a arduino.

    When the crap-ola hits the fan you need to know your stuff. They guy who uses Arduino will be out in the cold unless he 'knows' and if he does why is he messing with an arduino anyway? When things get messy I swear by in circuit debug which the boot loader board called arduino does not give you.

    Personally I love the idea that I could slap an arduino shield on my pic project. Not something I have done but for some stuff it is enticing.
     
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  14. Jon Wilder

    Jon Wilder Active Member

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    Jealousy does play a part, but not in the way most would think.

    What it boils down to is that kits like Arduino promote misleading people. Lots who use the Arduino pass themselves off as "knowing microcontrollers" and "engineers" when really all they learned (if they learned anything at all) was how to make the Arduino platform itself work. Put them in front of a bread board with a PIC, AVR, AT89S/8051 with no boot loader and they will quickly revert to deer in the headlights.

    The issue is that they appear to be as clever as those of us who took the time to learn microcontrollers to those who wouldn't know how to tell the difference. Moreover, you will also find these people on other electronics forums giving out bunk advice based on their "experience" when the only reason it worked when they did it is because there were things in place that are ONLY in place on their Arduino to mask them from any danger. Yet you'll see them handing out advice to non-Arduino hackers as if they know all about microcontrollers. All because Arduino gave them a sense of overconfidence.

    Furthermore, I am a huge opponent of kits that do everything to mask beginning students from proper terminology at all costs. Things like using "sketch" to identify a program, "shield" to identify an external peripheral, etc etc. If you're masking them from the truth, what are you really teaching them?
     
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  15. NorthGuy

    NorthGuy Well-Known Member

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    ... the spurns that patient merit of the unworthy takes ... :)
     
  16. be80be

    be80be Well-Known Member

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    This is to funny!! Why use C if it's all about data sheets ? Why write programs for a PC sure don't want that data sheet.
    If one wants to read I don't care what you use there more there then the bits and pieces that's posted here.
    Even with the arduino yes you can load some ones code hack it a little and dang look what I did. But there's more there if you want to read. But the big thing I see there is some one wrote that nice code you hacked..

    It's the same in any boat if there's no motor some one has to paddle..
     
  17. micropad

    micropad Member

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    Every Company try to develop their products most reliability and suite to needs of the customers. In between PIC and AVR are good competitors. Therefore their products always more reliable. But selection of product base on our project totally depend on our's selection.
     
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  18. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    ever so slightly off topic, but not exactly. I think things are about to change with pics and arduino. Dont ask me exactly why, I think the pic is going to get more like the Arduino.
    I tried to download mplab 8, I did eventually get it, but it was hard to find, I then tried to get the student or demo version of C18, I couldnt get it, the closest I got was a package to upgrade from a full previous version.
    So I decided ok its time to give in and go the mplabx route, installed it and installed xc8.
    When you read the datasheet of some/most the newer pic 18's it says they are optomised for C. It boats that they have an extended instruction set.
    Does it not bother anyone else that the path microchip now forces you down, is mplabx and xc8?? because with those tools you have to check a little box that TURNS OFF the extended instruction set!
    So apparently there flagship dev tools no longer support the extended and optomized bits of the chips.
    Also they are coming out with more and more arduino like boards!!
    One other thing, in trying to learn MPLABX i loaded the demo C template, I liked it in places, some of the wording confused me a little but thats ok. I thought ok I can live with this, so I better use the little button that says rename project, that way I get to keep the blank one. Guess what, the whole thing crashed and wouldnt rename it!
    So I am now sitting here with one the new Geko 8051 boards, its taken me 2 days, to go from zero to getting it to do useful stuff, its been painless, its all worked as per the instructions and its all in C.
    I havnt looked at the data sheet, I dont have to, in the IDE you can bring up a page that tells you what reg's are on which pin and what they do, all in plain english!
    Suddenly I am no longer a fan of pics like I was, I think there new way of doing things will cost them dear
     
  19. misterT

    misterT Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Arduino is not a chip. You can buy an Arduino with AVR, PIC or ARM on it.
     
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  20. micropad

    micropad Member

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    What is your definition for both PIC 18F & ATmega with following definition

    Structural Hazards
    Data Hazards
    Control Hazards
     
  21. misterT

    misterT Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    All of those things depend on the skills of the user. When used correctly all microcontrollers are extremely reliable. They do have bugs etc, but usually nothing serious.
     
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