Air Tasers: Unanswered Questions...

[DigiTan]

Hey guys. I know these electric weapon topics are a dime-a-dozen, but bare with me here... :lol:

Since I'm lacking in HV projects now, I'm trying to build a working air-taser from scratch. This is the type of taser that uses compressed gas to fire a conductive line. I have a few promising schematics on this, but there are still a few loose ends:

(1) I'm aware that quality tasers waves are modulated by an HF wave to leave the heart rhythm uneffected. I need to apply this too, but still want maximum effectiveness on other muscle structures. Are there any figures or studies that will show me the best waveform?

(2) I need a transformer with a high turns ratio to step the voltage up from the 100's to the 10,000's or 100,000's. So far only have 1 and will probably want a replacement soon. Which companies sell taser transformers, and what is the typical cost?

(3) This is mechanical. I'm in need of a way to puncture the C02 gas cartride in one quick burst. I stumbled on a similar device at a wine shop, but it was a tad larger than what I had in mind. Does anyone know of a tool that will do this? Something used with paintball equipment maybe? Possibly spring-loaded?

 

[Oznog]

HV like this is pretty hard to mess around with. The off-the-shelf and homebuilt components would be unlikely to do the job. Aside from the difficulties in getting the components to work, it may kill you.

Info on what the wave looks like is probably proprietary. You might just buy a $20 stun gun and try to see what it does, but you'll need a super high voltage probe or the scope will of course smoke.

CO2 cartridges aren't punctured like this. You could have an opened, punctured cartridge hooked up to a pressurized system like a paintball or BB gun does. The closest thing I can think of is an inflatable life preserver but it isn't going to fire reliably at the exact instant you pull a trigger.

Tasers don't use compressed air as far as I know, it's a small pyro charge. They can only fire one shot anyways.

 

[DigiTan]

Yep, I'm familar with atmospheric breakdown and other hazards from HV so I plan to go with the right equipment. The one HV transformer I have came from a $35 unit that became useless after its spark gap corroded and I went poking around for parts. The transformer I recovered didn't have any markings and I don't have the equipment to study it.

For the C02, I'll use pre-punctured as long as the leakage is low enough to shelve it for a weeks or months at a time. I thought those little C02 race cars might be promising too, but there is 0 information on how those are punctured on the web so far.

The taser I was most interested in reproducing was the M18 Advance Taser that is showing up in a lot of police depts. I'm mainly avoiding pyro charge because that may classify it as an illegal "zip gun" in this state. Plus my neighboors will think I'm a terrorist. :lol:

 

[chiba]

Why would anyone want to make as tazer? if you miscalculate something and the victum ends up dead then you will be in a world of trouble, worse if the victum gets annoyed by an underpowered taser and ends up teaching you a lesson. Even worse, getting caught testing it on an animal, i'm feeling a bit hostile just imagining catching someone doing that.

Who was it that said, don't wound anything you cannot kill?

 

[DigiTan]

Yes, yes..."false security," "incapacitation," "load dependence," I have heard all this before. :lol: My concern here is finding the proper materials and waveforms. If it will put everyone's minds at rest, let's just call this an "academic research" project.

 

[DigiTan]

Maybe I should have named this "Air Tasers: Unanswerable Questions." You guys mean no one knows of a commercial high-turns transformer that may fit this application?

 

[chiba]

How about this, I build one, test it on your testicals and if you think it's a lot of fun then i will help you build one?

 

[DigiTan]

...Blah, blah, blah. If you have no knowledge of the subject, just say so.

Anyway, for those interested, I've located a transformer at amazing1.com that will tolerate 45kV on its secondary. This is well short of the 100kV I was hoping for, but it's a decent start. I'll check out the wine shops again for C02 equipment, until then I'm using smokeless power to get the 35 ft/sec I'm shooting for (eh...no pun intended). :lol: More updates later...

 

[zachtheterrible]

How about modifying a paintball gun? too bulky?

How 'bout this- gunpowder. C02 will be an enormous pain because you will have to make some sort of way to dispense it, and im sure you don't have the tools to do that without making it rather large.

Do you ever watch mythbusters? There was this episode about someone who used a .22 bullet to replace a blown fuse in their car. There was a short in the system and the bullet became very hot and fired. They tested the myth and it worked very well, with the bullet firing instantaneously.

I'm sure that you could use that same concept to heat the gunpowder and fire it, without using any kind of bulky, undependable mechanical means to propel the wire. Maybe even make your own "bullets" with wire in them instead of a slug.

 

[chiba]

...Blah, blah, blah. If you have no knowledge of the subject, just say so.

...

blah? I know him, he built my vacuum potter for me, you probably don't understand how that is relevant though. Why do you want to build a 100,000 Volt taser, isn't the 50,000volt police issue dangerous enough?

**broken link removed**

 

[Roboticinfo]

reply

Actual for the CO2 you can easily make a CO2 deflater with just a guide and a needle.

All you need is a small wooden block that can fit the small CO2 and mount it in there. Then you have a tube with a needle in it and wait this is not going to sound right unless you see it.

I will have picture of the device I made when my friend comes back from his summer trip and lets me borrow is digital camera.

 

[DigiTan]

blah? I know him, he built my vacuum potter for me, you probably don't understand how that is relevant though. Why do you want to build a 100,000 Volt taser, isn't the 50,000volt police issue dangerous enough?

:roll: Okay, I just met you so I'm not going to say anything evil...for now. But you're really showcasing some lack of research here.

Any freshman EE student can tell you that lethality is a matter of current, not voltage. In fact, since my 100kV design will use transformer induction and step this current down, it is less likely to deliver a lethal charge than a 50kV police unit. Considering tasers are used by police about 100,000 times annually in the U.S., I consider this an excellent safety record.

True story: last year a 21-year-old man has "killed" by a taser here in Texas. ...Until an autopsy revealed he had actually died during from a cocaine-induced delerium. It is not unusual for taser death statistics sites to count these as "taser kills." Anyway, it should be clear to all by now that I plan to go forward with or without the forum's cooperation. :wink:

<--- Scaremongering ends here --->

@ Roboticinfo:

Thanks, bud! I was thinking of something like this but I was sure of how it would fit together. I'm guess the one you had in mind was spring-loaded?

 

[Roboticinfo]

[
@ Roboticinfo:

Thanks, bud! I was thinking of something like this but I was sure of how it would fit together. I'm guess the one you had in mind was spring-loaded?

Yep it is spring loaded so it gives it more support, I will have the pics as soon as I can get my hands on the digital camera.

 

[zachtheterrible]

until then I'm using smokeless power to get the 35 ft/sec I'm shooting for (eh...no pun intended). More updates later...

haa haa. I didn't even realize that you had said that, makes me look like an idiot . . . reinventing your wheel :lol:

 

[chiba]

:roll: Okay, I just met you so I'm not going to say anything evil...for now. But you're really showcasing some lack of research here.

Any freshman EE student can tell you that lethality is a matter of current, not voltage. In fact, since my 100kV design will use transformer induction and step this current down, it is less likely to deliver a lethal charge than a 50kV police unit. Considering tasers are used by police about 100,000 times annually in the U.S., I consider this an excellent safety record.

Lol, it's perfectly safe because it's only killed 70+ people?

M18 Energy: Power: 26 Watts; Per Pulse: 1.76 Joules; and Amps: 162mA

You can see in the above data they list a potentialy fatal current of 162mA, the reason this is not so lethal is because it's pulsed at the right frequency (a frequency you don't know) so as to deliver a non-lethal amount of energy (only 70+ dead people so it's non-lethal)

btw, 35ft/s is only 24mph! I guess you are planning to shoot them in the back like that cop did to the 12 year old schoolgirl.

Again, i ask the same question WHAT DO YOU INTEND TO DO WITH A 100,000 VOLT TASER?

 

[Pyroandrew]

having worked with tasers before, I would ask, sorry for this :lol: , "what do you want one for?" . They are very complex bits of kit. They are illegal, yes, even in America. The type of taser you want to build is especially dangerous, firing fishing hooks into people is not the 'cleverest' idea now is it?

Enough finger wagging from me.

There are plenty of technical issues as well. If it's the challange your after, it's a great one, but for f*cks sake don't try it on any living thing.

OK, certainly enough finger wagging now... :lol:

Shooting darts is a quite complex engineering challenge. On a technical note, applying a potential across BP does NOT cause it to ignite. If you have no experience on using pyrotechnic devices I suggest you don't go down that path. Zach, you truely are terrible ! Compressed gas is a pretty good path to go down, springs are ok IF, you can get them to work.

As for the taser end, you really do need to be carful, Any Freshman, who ever that is (maybe you meen Amy??, only kidding :lol: ), seems to be under a common misconseption. The reverse emf caused by a magnitic field collapsing can deliver very large instantanious currents. Other than 100,000V being a numerical milestone, I can't see any reason to make a taser that powerful. You need to make sure you limit the current your device is capable of delivering.

 

[zachtheterrible]

On a technical note, applying a potential across BP does NOT cause it to ignite.

its not the potential, its the heat.

As for compressed gasses, he would probably have to buy some kind of release system pre-built. Unless he's got machining skills.

The way I see it, gunpowder would be a great way to go. Of course one would have to limit how much powder so as not to put a hole through somebody :lol: . The reason it would be so cool is that you could make "bullets" with wire and hooks in them.

 

[DigiTan]

Lol, it's perfectly safe because it's only killed 70+ people?

M18 Energy: Power: 26 Watts; Per Pulse: 1.76 Joules; and Amps: 162mA

You can see in the above data they list a potentialy fatal current of 162mA, the reason this is not so lethal is because it's pulsed at the right frequency (a frequency you don't know) so as to deliver a non-lethal amount of energy (only 70+ dead people so it's non-lethal)

btw, 35ft/s is only 24mph! I guess you are planning to shoot them in the back like that cop did to the 12 year old schoolgirl.

Again, i ask the same question WHAT DO YOU INTEND TO DO WITH A 100,000 VOLT TASER?

chiba, you're just not getting it. If you hadn't spent all night trying to convert fps to mph, you would have seen in my first post that my #1 priority is already cardiac safety ("heart safety" in laymans terms). I've already seen all your studies and weblinks on microshock and load (in)dependence on these devices--and yes I also found the waveform I need. At least we're in agreement now that this is a matter of current. Smart move. I suggest you follow this link to the Reading Comprehension Connection and order some of their software.

The debate has ended. If you continute to spam in my thread and drag things off-topic, I will ask a moderator to remove your posts.


@ Pyroandrew: Those are very good points. I happen work with local pyrotechnic clubs on occaision so I'm planning to use a "no licence" electric ignitor. Anyway, SP is just a temporary tool for now; I just need to get things off the ground (D'oh...another pun). Like zach said, my machining skills are limited, so I might have someone else build the C02 release.

100kV will likely just be a peak voltage. I read from previous posts that stun guns are highly load-dependent, so I'm hoping to use some current sensing to make sure the secondary never carries a dangerous amount. In a pinch, this would double as short-circuit protection for my other components. But the HV makes this an unusual problem. Anyway, like many Tesla Coil projects, this one is just for kicks. I don't intent to run around blasting people. :lol:

 

[chiba]

And yet again you have failed to answer the question, what do you intend to do with a 100,000 volt taser? Considering the lethal nature of such a device I would think the moderators will want to know the same question.

 

[DigiTan]

Anyway, like many Tesla Coil projects, this one is just for kicks. I don't intent to run around blasting people. :lol:

If you want to argue ethics, make your own topic and I'll be happy to ignore it. You have been reported.