Air crash

[bristol188]

Hi All This is a bit off subject, but it is electronic. I watched an air crash show
on TV the one where the pilot shut down the wrong engine. I just could not believe that there would not be a malfunction light for each engine. Any comments, I realize it is probably old hat but well.
Thanks

 

[Papabravo]

Hi All This is a bit off subject, but it is electronic. I watched an air crash show
on TV the one where the pilot shut down the wrong engine. I just could not believe that there would not be a malfunction light for each engine. Any comments, I realize it is probably old hat but well.
Thanks

If you've ever been in a cockpit in an emergency you can well understand how things can continue to go wrong. It is a matter of no surprise to me.

 

[j.p.bill]

Remember the first Airbus? It had a fully auromated landing routine in the computer. It became active at low altitude when flaps and landing gear was down.

The pilot flying the demo at the Paris Airshow was told not to fly lower than so many meters while the flaps and gear were down. He had to show off, and went below the magic altitude while on a path to a small patch of woods. The computer took over and landed him (no off button) in the trees.

Who was the more stupid - the pilot or the company that provided the flight control software?

 

[jpanhalt]

As with almost everything in flying, there is a protocol and checklist to follow in emergencies. Many (if not most) small, twin-engine aircraft do not have warning lights for which engine is "out." Nevertheless, one is trained to detect which engine is out by the feel of the aircraft. The changes are quite distinct ("dead foot, dead engine"). Plus, there are confirmatory procedures that should/must be followed.

So, in theory, there is no problem. In reality, and with the pressures of a true emergency (i.e., what were the flight conditions at the time, was it IFR, was it take off or landing, over-loading, icing, turbulence, etc.), you may tell yourself it is "the left engine", but still shut down the wrong engine. Frankly, I don't believe an added light on the instrument panel would help, and the main reason for that opinion is that you would still need to confirm it and shut down the correct engine.

The urgency is not so much to shut down the bad engine, but to stabilize the aircraft and apply appropriate thrust to both engines (only one will respond). Of course, that is assuming there is not something horribly wrong with the bad engine that would require more immediate attention. Appropriate thrust may also mean to reduce throttle on both engines, depending on the situation. John

 

[Papabravo]

We always used to say there are two kinds of pilots:
Those who have pranged an airframe,
And those who are about to...

 

[bristol188]

If you've ever been in a cockpit in an emergency you can well understand how things can continue to go wrong. It is a matter of no surprise to me.

Hi PB That's true, but you are trained to scan the instruments in order of descending importance. A malfunction light is high on the list. They did not appear to be in immanent danger at first. I'm not a pilot worse luck. Still, not to old to try though.
Thanks

 

[Papabravo]

Probably the scariest part of my flight training was emergency landings at night. The essential part of the procedure was to turn on the landing light at 200' AGL. If we didn't like what we saw we were supposed to turn it off!

BTW it's fairly common to land at a faster airspeed then you use for takeoff, especially if you attempt a wheel landing in a tail-dragger.

 

[bristol188]

You are right PB. My signature is ment more as a skit than fact.

 

[Papabravo]

You are right PB. My signature is ment more as a skit than fact.

Still, It's fun to reminisce.

 

[ericgibbs]

Hi All This is a bit off subject, but it is electronic. I watched an air crash show
on TV the one where the pilot shut down the wrong engine. I just could not believe that there would not be a malfunction light for each engine. Any comments, I realize it is probably old hat but well.
Thanks

hi rog,
If this crash happened in the UK Jan during the 1980/90's. the reason why the guys shut down the wrong engine is because
the alarm light wiring had been crossed over!.

If there had been a forward looking camera, mounted aft, they could have seen the problem engine.

In my R.A.F. days [1950's] I was always told 'any landing you walk away from is a good landing'.

I was flying as a 'passenger' with my neighbour, a Flight Engineer, doing training circuits and bumps at night,
with 4 other Lincoln bombers.

We had done a couple of circuits and on the third run, the pilot veered off as he had seen an unexpected light on the runway.
Ground control told him it was just a faulty light, so we landed, half down the runway we saw the back end of the previous plane looming up.
Crunch, we ploughed into the back of it.
Our inboard, stb prop went along his rear fuselage like bacon slicer, chopping every 18 inch's,
his tail rudder upright cut thru our stb wing.

Both planes were right off's, the odd light the pilot had seen was the tail light of the previous plane which had not cleared the runway.

If you have seen 'MythBusters' TV doing the same fuselage myth, it can happen, it confirmed!

If you like scary take offs/landing try Johannesburg in South Africa during one of their frequent thunderstorms.
I've done it many times and they are the worst Ive known, definitely white knuckle

 

[Pommie]

Any light plane pilot will tell you that the response to a wing fire on take off or landing is to turn toward the fire, that way the flames are blown away from the cockpit. In the Manchester air disaster, they did the exact opposite and a lot of people died as a result. The Wiki report above states that the pilot didn't know there was a fire but that is not what was reported at the time and I think this was when cameras were first suggested.

Mike.

 

[ericgibbs]

Any light plane pilot will tell you that the response to a wing fire on take off or landing is to turn toward the fire, that way the flames are blown away from the cockpit. In the Manchester air disaster, they did the exact opposite and a lot of people died as a result. The Wiki report above states that the pilot didn't know there was a fire but that is not what was reported at the time and I think this was when cameras were first suggested.

Mike.

hi mike,
I was thinking of the plane that came down at the side of the motorway in the Midlands. I know it was Jan and IIRC 1990's.
I remember and agree about Manchester incident.

 

[bristol188]

hi mike,
I was thinking of the plane that came down at the side of the motorway in the Midlands. I know it was Jan and IIRC 1990's.
I remember and agree about Manchester incident.

Yes that was the one in the show. The engine was just sending out sparks from the damaged fan, it did not catch fire untill allmost at tuchdown. By then the good engine would not restart. Al well!! But not funny.
Thanks

 

[audioguru]

Some pilots kniow what they are doing.

In Canada, the first Boeing 767 had a coast to coast trip but didn't have enough fuel. The people fueling it got mixed up with imperial gallons and liters.

It ran out of fuel about half-way in the trip and the pilot was lucky to remember an abandonned airstrip, was lucky to find it and glided in for a perfect landing. It scared the car racers who were there.

Another big jet ran out of fuel half-way across the Atlantic because of a leak and a mixup. It glided for a long way and made a safe landing on an island.

Can you imagine what it is like to glide a big jet? Too far away or too close;
too high or too low; too fast or too slow. It is amazing that it can be done.

 

[Papabravo]

Some pilots kniow what they are doing.

In Canada, the first Boeing 767 had a coast to coast trip but didn't have enough fuel. The people fueling it got mixed up with imperial gallons and liters.

It ran out of fuel about half-way in the trip and the pilot was lucky to remember an abandonned airstrip, was lucky to find it and glided in for a perfect landing. It scared the car racers who were there.

Another big jet ran out of fuel half-way across the Atlantic because of a leak and a mixup. It glided for a long way and made a safe landing on an island.

Can you imagine what it is like to glide a big jet? Too far away or too close;
too high or too low; too fast or too slow. It is amazing that it can be done.

You should compute the lift of such a big set of wings at even a modest airspeed. The number is truly impressive.

 

[audioguru]

A big jet has a lot of drag. They normally land with the power on pretty high.
I know, the "glide-slope" during a normal landing is very shallow. When gliding the glide slope must be pretty steep or it will slow down and stall.

Dive in then fan-out and mush on the landing. Plop down without even rolling.

 

[zevon8]

You should compute the lift of such a big set of wings at even a modest airspeed. The number is truly impressive.

The 767 400 series will carry a little over 100,000 Kg in payload, and the aircraft weighs slightly more than that empty.

I agree, amazing lift.

Alot of people have seen this, but it is still pretty wild... blowing an approach then pulling heavy yaw to correct for sidewinds in a 747 at the old Kai Tak airport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzCqVPMpHwg

 

[bristol188]

The 767 400 series will carry a little over 100,000 Kg in payload, and the aircraft weighs slightly more than that empty.

I agree, amazing lift.

Alot of people have seen this, but it is still pretty wild... blowing an approach then pulling heavy yaw to correct for sidewinds in a 747 at the old Kai Tak airport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzCqVPMpHwg

Yes that's a great bit flying. I bet the laundry business done well out of it.

 

[zevon8]

Yes, its a beauty. My brother said it is one of the worst airports he had ever used. I guess it is closed for good reason