Tube Oscilloscopes VS a Solid State Oscilloscopes VS a Storage O-Scope, for event triggering

[Billy Mayo]

My Manager is Obsessed with the simpson 260 and the Tek 503 Oscilloscope, He likes the Tek 503 Oscilloscope because it is a TUBE oscilloscope and the Display is not like NEW waves he calls it , I'm guessing the O-scopes are solid state and not tube and they have a different LOOK on the display than TUBE oscilloscope , he calls it new wave or something like that, I think my manger is talking about how the tube oscilloscope internally creates the vertical and horizontal beams

What can you do on a TEK 503 Oscilloscope that you can't do on a regular non storage o scope?

What's the difference between a Tube oscilloscope VS a solid state oscilloscope?

Does the Display differently with a tube oscilloscope VS a solid state oscilloscope?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Tek...m%2Ftektronix%2Fvintage%2Ftek503.html;634;475

 

[Billy Mayo]

If a circuit is triggered by an event, input voltage or current, my manager said I have to use a storage o-scope because the circuit is triggered by an event is this true cant use a non- storage scope?

What can be an EVENT that can trigger an input of a circuit or IC chip?

 

[ronsimpson]

Simpson 260

Tek 503 Oscilloscope

>Much of your manager's likes/dislikes are based on his likes. (and history) Much like I like green apples and not red apples.
>There is not much difference between tube and solid state scopes. There is more difference between HP and Tek.
>Analog storage is like any analog scope but the image is stored in the tube.
>There are differences between "digital" verses "analog".

 

[Billy Mayo]

There are differences between "digital" verses "analog".

What's the difference?

what can an analog O-scope do that you can't do on a digital O-scope

I'm guessing things u can do a Tube Scope that you can't do on a normal O scope?

 

[Billy Mayo]

When a circuit is triggered by an event, what does that mean?

What can the EVENT be to trigger a circuit? please give examples

 

[ronsimpson]

When a circuit is triggered by an event, what does that mean?
What can the EVENT be to trigger a circuit? please give examples

2 modes:
1. Every 5mS the scope sweeps across the screen. (5mS=set by a knob, any number on the knob)
2. The scope sweeps only when something happens. (voltage crosses a set level, rising edge, falling edge)

 

[Billy Mayo]

The circuit has a input threshold at .300amps of current
Once the input has .300amps it will take 3 seconds to SWITCH the output from 0 to +25 volts

A DVM meter response time takes awhile for it to switch from 0 to +25 volts

When measuring this time with a stop watch from the inputs threshold is tripped to when the output switches from 0 to +25 the DVM meter also adds in time to response tim

The Stop watch is 4 seconds because of the DVM meter response time was added to the circuits switch time

My Manager said this circuit is triggered by a Event , because the input has a threshold so i can't use a regular Non-storage oscilloscope to do these kinds of measurements?

the circuit has 7 stages of Op amp is first state, Intergator stage ( this converts AC to DC ) , Comparators stage that goes to a NAND gate, etc. etc.

The circuit works when you apply a Positive voltage the output will switch to +25 volts , but when you switch polarities on the input to a Negative voltage , the output will be dead.

I track down the problem, it was how the Positive comparator worked with the NAND gate, but Negative comparator didn't work with the NAND gate for some reason

The NAND gates output ONLY on the Negative polarity input would make the NAND gates output having an output null oscillation, fluctuating milli voltage up and down when there was NO INPUTS on the NAND GATE. It had a very small oscillation output or fluctuating output in micro or millvolts

Not sure what this is called when a 7400 family gates output is doing this

 

[ronsimpson]

What's the difference?
what can an analog O-scope do that you can't do on a digital O-scope
I'm guessing things u can do a Tube Scope that you can't do on a normal O scope?

Analog scopes can place a "dot or line" any where on the screen, while a digital scope only has some number of places on the screen. One example look at a B&W TV and a color TV with a magnifying lens. You will see the color has 1000s of R,G,B dots. (not a good example but....)

Digital scopes can store the image and display it days later.

Digital scopes can alias. Older digital scopes really have this problem. This picture shows a fast signal that the scope samples at a slow rate and displays a much slower picture that is not correct. This happens when the sweep speed is set slow and the waveform is fast.

 

[Billy Mayo]

The NAND GATE's input#1 was the Positive non-inverting comparator, input#2 was the Negative inverting comparator

The NAND gate was comparing the two comparators , but was only working in the Positive Non inverting comparator

The NAND gate had an output but only for the non inverting comparator

I wonder why

 

[ronsimpson]

If you are looking at a 3S picture a non storage scope will not give you a good picture. The picture will fade away before it is drawn.
Any storage scope (digital, analog, transistor, or tube) will pant the picture on the screen and hold it until you can measure it.

Probably any digital will work.

 

[Billy Mayo]

Analog scopes can place a "dot or line" any where on the screen,

My manager said that the TEK 503 is tube and that a tube o-scope is not a dot or line it something different than solid state o scopes

He said that the response time is faster , is this true?

 

[ronsimpson]

My manager said that the TEK 503 is tube and that a tube o-scope is not a dot or line it something different than solid state o scopes

????? A tube TV and a transistor TV set function the same and both use the same type of CRT.
A tube scope and a transistor scope functions the same and both use the same type of CRT.

He said that the response time is faster , is this true?

I once owned a 100mhz scope, tube type. That is about where tube scopes stopped being made.
I have several 500mhz transistor scopes. The slowest transistor scope I have is 100mhz.
I have used a 12ghz scope.
Every year the speed goes up.

 

[Billy Mayo]

So there is no difference at all? they do the same thing?

Is it true that I can only use a storage O-scope when I want to measure a circuit that has a trigger input or needs to be triggered by something like an event?

 

[Billy Mayo]

At one of my last jobs I used an LeCroy Waverunner LT344 DSO Digital Oscilloscope

You can Store A LOT and 4 channels at once, plus you can zoom in on the stored waveform and measure it

When you did zoom it should make a squarewavform into a Triangle cone like shaped because of the resolution

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

This is kinda a hard question. A dual beam analog oscilloscope can display signals in the time and frequency domain in real time. That application is really tough to beat.

The tube oscilloscope (meaning uses vacuum tubes) is HEAVY. The one I had weight about 60 lbs. They use more power. They take time to warm up.
They take up a lot of bench space.

An analog scope can see glitches that a digital scope cannot because of the sampling. An analog scope may be easier to repair and possible to repair.

 

[Billy Mayo]

At work I have to measure each input and output stage of a circuit

If the circuit board has 10 stages, I have to use an logic analyzer and put a probe from input to output for each state

I have to measure the TIME period for each stage, and then add them up to make sure it adds up to the total time of the output circuit time it takes to switch from zero to +25 volts

I also have to adjust trim pots for each stage to find out what the thresholds are for each input for each stage of the circuit

If the Threshold voltages are not calibrated and are off, it makes the output Total time longer, why is that? because it takes longer for the signal to get to the threshold voltage for each stage of the circuit which makes the time longer and longer

When there is a Threshold problem like this , of cause delay time problems , what is this called?

 

[Billy Mayo]

An analog scope can see glitches that a digital scope cannot because of the sampling.

My Digital storage scope can see glitches, maybe cause i'm using the storage part and measuring slow waveforms

 

[ronsimpson]

An analog scope can see glitches that a digital scope cannot because of the sampling.

My Digital storage scope can see glitches, maybe cause i'm using the storage part and measuring slow waveforms

Apples and oranges. They see things differently. Depends on what type of digital scope.

Digital glitch: Some digital scopes, when sampling slow, can miss a spot. VERY TRUE Sweeping at 1S speed you only sample 1024 times in that one second. I have several scopes, that have a 'glitch' mode. I have a 100mhz scope that samples at only 300mhz. When displaying a slow signal it only samples 1024 times across the screen and it can miss a glitch. In glitch mode it samples 300,000,000/S but that is too much data to store or display on the screen. Lets say it takes 1S to trace across the screen and there are only 1024 places in memory so that about 300,000 samples for every dot on the screen. So, depending on what buttons I push: It can average the 300,000 data points to make one dot, OR It can find (the hightes AND the lowest, AND the average) then display all three. It can find a very small glitch.

Analog glitch: It can display many types of glitches. In the case of sweeping at 1S rate and a 3nS glitch happens. The dot till go up for 3nS but that will be so dim you can't see it. The digital glitch catcher will grab it and display it at full brightness.

 

[Billy Mayo]

Analog Storage scopes are better at glitches right? than a digital o scope?

You just have to use a very slow sweep speed on my analog storage scope , I see the glitches but when I zoom in the resolution is blurry and out of focus

 

[Billy Mayo]

When I'm using a digital O scope, I can't tell if the glitches are coming from the circuit board or from the digital O scopes A/D converters or the digital O scope itself causing the glitches

Isn't this true?