PicBasic Pro vs MikroBasic vs (SX/B or PBASIC)

[tdg8934]

Hello all - I need some help understanding PICs, etc. but here's my background first:

I have been using Parallax microcontrollers for a couple of years now starting with a BASIC STAMP 2 (using PBASIC) and later moving up to SX-28 / SX-48 using (SX/B) on their Professional Development Board (PDB).

https://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=45182

I have been very active on their forum contributing when I can. Most of my hobbiest projects involve LED matrixes and I have come up with some very cool projects:

**broken link removed**

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However, I want to expand my horizons a little. As I see in Nuts and Volts Magazine that I subscribe to, are so many PIC articles and some with AVR, etc.

I am not a C programmer nor do I really want to learn assembly (maybe a little). I would like to stick with BASIC.

I was looking at PicBasic Pro but saw the $250 price tag and then I would need a development board and other associated products.

However, this morning I saw MikroBasic which is $150 or $100 if purchasing a development board like their EasyPIC4 and MikroBasic combination package which was $250 total together.

Then they have all of these other development boards for AVR, ARM, dsPIC, etc. How does one know what to buy? I am a bit lost on what to consider.

I am going to use it as a Hobbiest basis and have some money but not tons to drop into this purchase. If I was convinced of the benefits of one system over the next, I would spend more on accessories as needed.

I just don't want to buy something and find out it is way too hard (like assembly only) or can't do much with because I need to buy this and this and this, etc..that I didn't originally buy.

Please help me with your experiences on these products.

Thanks so much!

 

[Leftyretro]

Well you have to make some decisions first before deciding on which compiler and language you want to use.

Which microprocessor series do you want to utilize? PIC, AVR and many others manufactures series of micros are avalible but most compilers and assemblers only work with one manufactures series. Also you will need a hardware programmer for the chips you wish to program and again they usually only work with one manufactures series of micros.

As far as compilers, if you already know basic and would like to stay with it and you can live with the PIC18 series of chips then there is a pretty nice structured basic compiler called Swordfish. I haven't moved up to it yet (I'm still a Picaxe user) but they have a user forum for lots of support and even offer a free non-expiring version that has full functionality but with a memory size restriction, sort of a try before buying the $150 unrestricted version.

https://www.sfcompiler.co.uk/swordfish/

Lefty

 

[tdg8934]

Thanks for the info.

That's my problem is not knowing what micro-controller is best to go with. I gave a bit of my background to allow forum members to decide which one is the best to use based on my LED interests and other common projects. One thing for sure is that I want something that is well supported (meaning lots of examples in that BASIC language). You stated you are using PICAXE. Why are you using this vs PICs or AVR, or others etc..? Just want to know your reasoning for this. There is so many options out there and I am confused on where to turn to.

I want a micro-controller type (e.g. PICAXE, DiosPro, PIC, AVR, not sure what else there is...) that is not too overwhelming but still popular to develop with.

If I was to design a project, I want to use something that others can use and build my project. So If I went with a little known micro-controller or use something that no one else is using, it may not be good to buy.

I'm thinking PICs are probably the ticket here but I no almost nothing about AVR's and other micro-controllers.

Comments? Anyone...

 

[kjennejohn]

Hi. Your projects sound simple enough that you could migrate to most anything. When I started down the microprocessor road four years ago I looked at several of the possibilities available. I decided to go with PICs because they had the most offerings.

I eventually started with the Atom from BasicMicro(.com). If you buy just the interpreter chip the initial expense is a mere $20. This is a PIC 16F876, 28 pins, or the 16F877A, 40 pins. The beauty in this is the (FREE!) BASIC they provide. It is very powerful! It allows you to take advantage of every pin, including the special internal functions built into the PIC, like PWM (good for controlling LED brightness), ADC (read voltages), to name a few, and use the serial port to talk your PC. You could easily create a message board with this. There is debug capability with this too. Start at this site:
**broken link removed**

Of course, if you just buy the chip you have to be ready to supply a breadboard to build on, and the basic resonator or crystal, capacitors, resistors, voltage regulator, etc. They do have development systems, basically starting around $100, and go up rapidly. ELProducts(.com) also has development systems using this chip. Both of these products use the serial port for programming and communications.

I have tried the Parallax SX. It's OK, I got it pre-BASIC, and it was obvious that it wasn't going to be upgraded in any way. But, it was DAMN fast for the time, and is still one of the fastest hobbyist chips out there. And nobody can beat Parallax for support in their forum.

I got the Mikroelectronica kit too. The price is right. I can't say enough good about the development board. The BASIC leaves something to be desired, for me anyways, but the forum is filled with helpful people.

I personally think the Atom is the next logical step up for you and your LED projects. I wish I could say that BM was a going concern, but things have gotten pretty quiet over in the forums. You can still find people there to help you, however, there just isn't a lot of traffic. If you're tempted to take their next step up and buy their MBasic Pro, DON"T! It hasn't been properly upgraded in four years, they don't support ANY of the 18Fs, and their attempts lately have been pretty hit and miss.

Hope that helped,
kenjj

 

[tdg8934]

Thanks for the synapsis on the ATOM. I'm gladd to see there is someone that has use Parallax products and can appreciate the speed. I do think that if I got the ATOM that I would want the best package so that I dont have to keep buying more and more accessories later. This is one reason I somewhat was engaged in the EasyPIC4 board by MikroElektronika and their MikroBASIC for PIC. Reasonably good price combo and the board has lots of gadgets, lcds, etc.. which is a big plus.

Does the ATOM offer any boards like this or other micro-controllers that can be programmed in BASIC?

 

[nickelflippr]

A more general case way to go, would be to get a PicKit 2 programmer, an Olimex Pic 40 proto board, and a few blank Pics (about $60 total or so). Newark has the best price on Pics.

With this setup, you could test drive the demo versions of the interested compilers, and have a start on your next project. Have to admit, getting the Lcd and other stuff on one board is tempting.

Another Basic compiler option is Great Cow Basic on Sourceforge. Has most of the 10f thru 18f supported, and a fair number of libraries. The forum is slow.

 

[tdg8934]

I was reading about the PicKit 2 in Nuts and Volts magazine and it sounds good but I really want a development board with all the gadgets.

Let me ask this question...What micro-controller has a large number of I/O? I built a moving display clock using an SX-48 / SX-52 by Parallax but having more outputs would have made the programming a bit easier (less supporting hardware). For my LED Matrix projects, something like 40+ outputs would be great. Yes I know I can go serial but the coding is a bit more difficult.

Let me hear from you all. PIC, AVR, ATOM, dsPIC, ARM,...etc

 

[kjennejohn]

Thanks for the synapsis on the ATOM. I'm gladd to see there is someone that has use Parallax products and can appreciate the speed. I do think that if I got the ATOM that I would want the best package so that I dont have to keep buying more and more accessories later. This is one reason I somewhat was engaged in the EasyPIC4 board by MikroElektronika and their MikroBASIC for PIC. Reasonably good price combo and the board has lots of gadgets, lcds, etc.. which is a big plus.

Does the ATOM offer any boards like this or other micro-controllers that can be programmed in BASIC?

Here is the page with BM's development kits, running $140, $150 and $170, depending on the number of module pins.
**broken link removed**
Avoid the Pro version of the Atom, you want the Basic version.

Here is the products page for EL Products: **broken link removed**
The hardware side of his business is now run by another outfit, but it's his products. I have his Basic Board. This has the Atom 40 pin chip on it. It has several bells and whistles, but tends to lean towards robot deveopment. It has several headers on it that lend themselves to plugging in servos and motors. Also, it lacks a breadboard area. It's an OK starting point for experimenting with the compiler, as it has several switches and LEDs and a 2x16 LCD. You could migrate to robots from this unit. I bought one early in my beginnings with uprocessors and it has worked well for me.
His OEM units plug into a breadboard, which his kits (starting around $100) supply, and he sells handy little support circuits to go with these. These are switches, LEDS galore, a voltage regulator, a serial port with RS232 chip, and others. The OEM modules he sells already come with a serial port, so you can both program and communicate with them.

If I started over again with what I know, I would get the EZPIC board and the free Swordfish compiler. The board will program a huge number of PICs, damn fast, and then let you exercise them then and there. These guys also have a wide selection of plug-in bords, dirt cheap, that seem to provide the most asked for peripherals from users anywhere.
Be aware, the compiler mentioned only does PIC 18Fs, but does a wide selection, and this series comes in large packages with oodles of pins and builtin peripherals. Most would be overkill for you, but the 18F452 is widely available and a good little chip for you to start with.

Hope that helped (more),
kenjj

 

[tdg8934]

Im a little confused in what you are saying. First you talk about the ATOM and then later you state if you had to do it all over you would get the EasyPIC. Isn't the EasyPIC4 for PICs and not ATOM's? Maybe I just am not following this. If I did get the EasyPIC4, I would probably want to get the MiKroBASIC for PIC bundle with the EasyPIC4 to save $50 ($250 total). Or are you saying that I should only get Swordfish (free version) and not the MikroBASIC for PIC - Is there a pay version of Swordfish? I want to make sure that I don't limit myself either. I do have a Parallax SX/B programming background and the ATOM sounds more like a slower Basic Stamp 2. I think I would need something faster with lots of I/O for my LED projects. Correct me if I am wrong - as I just haven't read into everything completely yet.

 

[bryan1]

Eh Tdg,
If you want to setup into pic's and still use basic checkout the oshonsoft basic. Personally I can't see the point in spending $$$ on a mikrocrap dev borad only to find it obsolete. From what I've noticed a fellow member of this forum is very active with oshonsoft and I reckon it's the best and cheapest way to go. Just make your own module boards like Nigel has on his tutorials and there is a decent programming schematic on the oshonsoft site.

Hope this helps

Cheers Bryan

 

[kjennejohn]

Im a little confused in what you are saying. First you talk about the ATOM and then later you state if you had to do it all over you would get the EasyPIC. Isn't the EasyPIC4 for PICs and not ATOM's? Maybe I just am not following this. If I did get the EasyPIC4, I would probably want to get the MiKroBASIC for PIC bundle with the EasyPIC4 to save $50 ($250 total). Or are you saying that I should only get Swordfish (free version) and not the MikroBASIC for PIC - Is there a pay version of Swordfish? I want to make sure that I don't limit myself either. I do have a Parallax SX/B programming background and the ATOM sounds more like a slower Basic Stamp 2. I think I would need something faster with lots of I/O for my LED projects. Correct me if I am wrong - as I just haven't read into everything completely yet.

The Atom is a PIC with a bootloader programmed into it. This bootloader allows you to download programs written in Atom BASIC into the chip simply using a PC's serial port. A programmer is not needed. You could put this in a programmer and erase the bootloader. Then it would just be another blank PIC.
The Atom has been described by BasicMicro and several users as the next logical step up from the Stamp. It has more memory, runs faster, and includes internal circuits you would normally have to add to a Stamp design, or write something in code to emulate the function, like ADCs or such. The fact you get a powerful BASIC for free is a big selling point for most. But you still have to get a relatively expensive development system ($100 to $200), which typically only gives some switches and LEDs to experiment with.

Thus we come to the EZPIC system and Swordfish.
For $145 at circuitED (shipping is extra, no LCD), every processor pin can have a switch, LED, pullup resistor/pulldown resistor/nothing (your choice), four seven-segment displays, a standard 2x16 LCD, a FAST USB programmer that does scads of different PICs... why even stop to think about it?

The Swordfish compiler produces straight .HEX code for several PIC 18Fs. The freely downloadable version has no time out, and is fully operational. They say,"The compiler is only constrained in terms of the amount of RAM available during compilation." I can't say how this works for sure. I believe I read in a thread somewhere that this limits you to using 200 bytes of RAM on the PIC, but I can't swear to it.
The full version is $150 on its own. Strangely enough, it looks like circuitED (USA) is offering a discount on this (marked down to $99) if you buy a development system at the same time... and the devel system is the EZPIC system?! Here's the compiler's sales site:
**broken link removed**
Check it out for yourself.
There's your $250. Of course mE's BASIC will do other PICs besides the 18Fs, so your money will be better spent with mE, if you don't mind paying for a full version of some BASIC.

So, write your code in a free, powerful BASIC compiler which produces .HEX code that any programmer can burn into a PIC processor. Do this on the inexpensive, mondo capable EZPIC unit, and when programming is done you're ready to exercise the PIC right then, right there.

'Hope that cleared up any confusion,
kenjj

 

[tdg8934]

Im a bit concerned as the Circuit-ED website shows MikroBasic for PIC as version 2.2:
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(Even the downloaded version shows 2.2.0.0)

While the Mikro manufacturers site show it as version 5.02:
http://www.mikroe.com/en/compilers/mikrobasic/pic/
http://www.mikroe.com/en/compilers/mikrobasic/pic/download.htm#updates
(Even the downloaded version shows 5.0.0.2) - confusing {is it 5.02 or 5.0.0.2?}

The reason to get this from Circuit-ed is because they are in the US and time would shorter for shipping? - Not if they are selling an older version which doesn't make sense. Maybe I can call to see if there website just needs to be updated - but that's a huge jump from 2.2 to 5.0...

Don't I also want to get a ATOM? Where do I get that from, the ATOM BM site?
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or
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I am assuming that I can use the ATOM on the BIGPIC4 Kit (bigger and comes with LCD's)?
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So from what I understand I would need to get:
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(big board with the LCDs)
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(or the free Swordfish version?)
What about MikroBasic for PIC instead of Swordfish for more PICs & ATOMs?
Why do you think the Swordfish is better if it only supports the 18F PICs and the MikroBasic for PIC supports more for the same discount cost of $99?
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(40 pin standard)
or
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(28 pin Pro)

Is this correct?


Can you send me specific links to everything I would want to get?

 

[tdg8934]

Here is what Warren from CircuitED said:

Tim,



For getting started with PIC’s we recommend the EasyPIC4 and mikroBasic. mikroBasic compiles for almost every PIC in the 10F, 12F, 16F, and 18F series. The EasyPIC4 board also provides sockets for most of these so you can easily program the PIC in circuit. The board also provides most of your needs to test the fundamental parts of your PIC project.



Swordfish is a very superior product but is for PIC18 only. I any case, you can download mikroBasic and Swordfish for free and use the full compiler without cost. The limitation will be on the size of the program you can compile, which in either case programs a large number of serious projects.



If you purchase the EasyPIC4 board you do not have to purchase the registered version of the compiler right away. You still qualify for the discount if you choose to purchase later. Remember that the EasyPIC4’s onboard programmer will work with any compiler.



We apologize if our webpages were not updated with the latest versions of the compiler. The links should be up to date. Here is the Downloads page for the current versions of the compilers:


https://www.mikroe.com/en/download/



Regards,

Warren Schroeder

CircuitED

My reply back to him was:

Thank you Warren for your quick reply.


I thought that the BIGPIC4 might be better because it appears to come with more “stuff” on the board – less to buy later. I was thinking getting this along with a couple of PIC 16F877A (like the EasyPIC4 comes with) or maybe a PIC 16F876A also (as I understand this is popular too). I want to be able to recreate people’s designs and circuits as I see them in magazines like Nuts and Volts and / or create more LED matrix circuits like I had with the Parallax SX-28 / SX-48 using SX/B (Basic).


You said that I still qualify for the discount if I choose to purchase this later. How long do I have?


It sounds like that with the EasyPIC4 (w/ PIC 16F877A) I would not be able to use Swordfish because it only supports the 18F PICs not the included 16F877A. But the BIGPIC4 comes with a special board with an 18F8520 which IS supported by Swordfish (being an 18F PIC). However, the 18F8520 is not really usable on a solder-less breadboard so what other chips should I consider with the BIGPIC4. I hope I’m understanding this right. Does this make sense?


Let me know…

Thanks again,


Tim

 

[tdg8934]

Ah. you previously mentioned that I should start with the 18F452 PIC which Circuit ED also sells and could be an add on chip for use with SwordFish. However, the popular 16F876A and 16F877A would need MikroBasic for PICs.

 

[tdg8934]

Warren wrote back:

Hi Tim,



The BigPIC4 is specifically designed for high pin count SMD PIC’s and therefore limits you in what type of projects you would pursue. Presently, we only sell 2 pre-mounted microcontrollers for this board, the 18F8520 and 18F8722. The EasyPIC4 can easily manage a 100 different types of DIP PIC’s and is better suited for anyone getting started. Most projects would ever require a high density PIC such as the BigPIC4 manages.


There is no limitation of time to qualify for the discounted compilers.


Regards,

Warren Schroeder

CircuitED

Well this is good news! I'm glad I found out about the BigPIC 4 as it is mainly for SMT PICSs. I definately want to go with an EasyPIC 4.

However, since it comes with a PIC 16F877 and not a PIC 18F series then I will need to also get a PIC 18F452 for SwordFish.

This leaves the question - Do I need SwordFish or MikroBasic for PIC. If I do need SwordFish then why is it so much better than MikroBais for PIC (if it only supports 18F PICs) ?

Finally - Where does the ATOM fall in here?

Waiting for a reply.

Thanks again!

 

[tdg8934]

I did order the following from Circuit Ed:

1. EasyPic 4 Development Kit (includes LCDs and 16F877A, cables, etc.)
2. PIC 18F452 I/P 40-pin DIP MCU
3. EasyProto Accessory Board.

$194 total including $11 priority shipping (2-3 day).

I did not order Swordfish or MikroBasic for PIC as I will order one of them at a later date but use the free versions for now until I get to learn the language a bit.

 

[Leftyretro]

I did order the following from Circuit Ed:

1. EasyPic 4 Development Kit (includes LCDs and 16F877A, cables, etc.)
2. PIC 18F452 I/P 40-pin DIP MCU
3. EasyProto Accessory Board.

$194 total including $11 priority shipping (2-3 day).

I did not order Swordfish or MikroBasic for PIC as I will order one of them at a later date but use the free versions for now until I get to learn the language a bit.

By the way here is link to the Swordfish forum, where even the developer hangs about answering question and taking in suggestions.

https://www.sfcompiler.co.uk/forum/

 

[tdg8934]

KJENNEJOHN,

I have decided to give up on the PICs but looking at taking your advice on the ATOM chips as the next upgrade for me.

Here is the page with BM's development kits, running $140, $150 and $170, depending on the number of module pins.
**broken link removed**
Avoid the Pro version of the Atom, you want the Basic version.

You stated to avoid the pro version. Would that not just leave me with nothing more than basically a Basic Stamp 2 (Parallax) which I already have a couple of those (BS2 and BS2px).

I was reading the manual and it also states an ATOM 40 PRO PLUS but it is no where's to be found on their website. Do you know anything about this?

 

[kjennejohn]

The Basic Atom _is_ a PIC. The Pro version is not. The BASIC for the PIC version is final and robust and allows you to take advantage of the internal peripherals in the PIC, which do not exist in a Stamp. BasicMicro wrote a BASIC for the Pro version, but traffic on the forum suggests it is incomplete and buggy, so I advise you not to get it.

I did order the following from Circuit Ed:

1. EasyPic 4 Development Kit (includes LCDs and 16F877A, cables, etc.)
2. PIC 18F452 I/P 40-pin DIP MCU
3. EasyProto Accessory Board.

$194 total including $11 priority shipping (2-3 day).

I did not order Swordfish or MikroBasic for PIC as I will order one of them at a later date but use the free versions for now until I get to learn the language a bit.

You purchased the best programmer/development system for using PICs, and bought a very good 18F series processor, then declare you are no longer interested in PICs. May I ask why?

If you wish to continue developing LED display systems, based on what I've seen in your project photos, you could still go farther with your Stamps. You can go into robotics, do data logging, automate your house, the list of possibilities is long. The Atom is a natural first step up from a Stamp, as is the PICAxe. The equipment you just purcahsed should allow you to do some really large projects.

So, what exactly are you trying to achieve here?
kenjj

 

[tdg8934]

I returned the EasyPIC 4 and accessories back because it was very overwhelming to know where to even begin. I got fustrated after a week of reading all the documentation to find out that the registry items like TRISA and PORTA were not listed in the PIC Basic language help or guide. I did not know where to find it at. All of the Basic Stamp 2 and SX-28 instructions are all listed in 1 place. After looking through the PIC 18Fxx2 datasheet for a 18F452 it was clear that I was spinning my wheels.

I wanted to move up to something else to see what was out there like PICs, AVRs, ATOMs, PICAXE, etc. I wanted something easy like the Basic Stamp 2 but with the programming power of the SX-28 micro controllers thinking PICs were the answer. Commands such as READ and DATA were just not listed in the PIC BASIC type languages. Although I see that that ATOM has everything (at least the PRO or PRO PLUS versions). I wanted more than a Basic Stamp 2 but did not want an overwhelming learning curve and the PIC scared me away I guess because of how limited I saw that the BASIC language commands were.

I hope I did not affend anyone with my actions but it did not seem right with me and I was able to return the stuff - still awating my refund.

I love developing LED display projects and XOR had some neat stuff which is really a good reason to almost hang in there with PICs.

Thats all.