much oddness going on, i have rebuilt the board five or six times exactly the same way each time and no luck! then the seventh time bingo it works, so i assume the bread board is on the way out
or its just one of those things, thanks alot eric at least now we have a better idea how to use transistors and trouble shoot them. i am starting to dislike bread boards as this is a long way from being the first time i have had trouble that ends up being down to a iffy board!