Metalurgist needed.

[Sceadwian]

Does anyone in heavy/light industry know anyone that knows a metallurgist that's been around for a while and knows what's what? I know the basics of heat treating processes, and alloys but no specifics or real world knowledge and a short conversation with a real metallurgist would shorten my net search. There's too much information for this stuff out there and I just want some practical hints and tips on a few specific situations. I'm really looking for an old salt that knows their buisness and doesn't mind questions from a kid with a lot of curiosity. Please respond in public or private if you know anyone that I can talk to that might possibly even lead me through 5 other people to find a metallurgist =)

 

[tcmtech]

What sort of information are you looking for? Asking around your local welding and fab shops would likely turn up a few old school guys that have more experience than they know how to use.

Years ago I used to know this old guy named Walt who was a old school blacksmith that always had some practical way of identifying different metals or doing odd stuff with them. He is where I learned much of what I know but I think he is either dead or packed away in a home some place now.

Its the only answer I have.

 

[shortbus=]

A copy of 'Machinery's Handbook' is a real good place to start. It breaks things down into every day language and even has some charts that recommend the type of steel to use for different objects/tools. Most library's have at least one copy, a new one is fairly expensive.

 

[atferrari]

dutchforce forum has some knowledgeable people controbuting a lot.

 

[Sceadwian]

Yeah, it's that 'neat stuff' information that I'm kind of looking for TCM, I think the first question I would have is re-purposing aluminum cans into sheet metal. Getting them to curved sheets is easy and I've heard a roller setup can be used to straighten them but I was wondering if they were pressed flat in a vice if bringing the metal up to stress relieving temperatures if the position would set in or if you'd have to go up to the full anneal temperature.

 

[RMMM]

This is a great place to start, while you wait for a hands-on guy to come along:
Aluminum | -Sheet, Plate

 

[Sceadwian]

Thanks RMMM, I'll definitly keep reading =)

 

[nickelflippr]

Newspaper company's used to be a good source of thin recyclable aluminum sheet. They may not even use that process anymore. Put some in as interior door panels in an old car.

 

[plankwood]

The machinery handbook is well worth having around I am use mine for reference all the time!

What are you trying to do with the aluminum cans.

 

[Sceadwian]

It's not what specifically, I'm looking at what can be done generally, I haven't had much luck finding the specific alloy the body of soda/beer bottles are made out of (might differ with maker) but I want to know what the alloy is to find out if it could be hardened. I somehow doubt it though precipitation hardnable grades of aluminum aren't common, and aluminum is hardened differently than steels.

I basically want to know from a metallurgist if there's any way for someone on a hobby scale (including access to a kiln) to harden soda/beer can aluminum sheets into flat stiffer than original sheets and what the.

It's for general repurposing which means I'm trying to find out what I CAN do with the materials I have and then find an artistic or practical if not amusing method of re-purposing simple materials out of what is common perceived as practical.

 

[shortbus=]

The alloy used is 3104-H19 or 3004-H19. This is from Wikipedia; Beverage can - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Modern cans are generally produced through a mechanical cold forming process that starts with punching a flat blank from very stiff cold-rolled sheet. This sheet is typically alloy 3104-H19 or 3004-H19, which is aluminium with about 1% manganese and 1% magnesium to give it strength and formability. The flat blank is first formed into a cup about three inches in diameter. This cup is then pushed through a different forming process called "ironing" which forms the can. The bottom of the can is also shaped at this time. The malleable metal deforms into the shape of an open-top can. With the sophisticated technology of the dies and the forming machines, the side of the can is significantly thinner than either the top and bottom areas, where stiffness is required. A single can-making production line can turn out up to 2400 cans per minute.[citation needed]

Plain lids are stamped from a coil of aluminium, typically alloy 5182-H48, and transferred to another press that converts them to easy-open ends. The conversion press forms an integral rivet button in the lid and scores the opening, while concurrently forming the tabs in another die from a separate strip of aluminium. The tab is pushed over the button, which is then flattened to form the rivet that attaches the tab to the lid.[citation needed]

Finally, the top rim of the can is trimmed and pressed inward or "necked" to form a taper conical where the can will later be filled and the lid (usually made of an aluminium alloy with magnesium) attached"

aluminum 3104; Aluminum 3104-H19

aluminum 3004; http://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/3004.asp

 

[260z]

Hiya

I am no metalurigist but what i can tell you is that ally hardness is in the compostition of the ally itself. The only other way is age hardening. As the name implies if you wait lomg enough the ally will get harder. Heating it only aneals it then like most things it work hardens.

Good on you for trying to recycle. You can roll a can flat but by the time you trim off the top that is rolled and the thick bottom you dont have much left.

People over here put bottles in a kiln until they are flat (decorative) or semicircular (ashtray). See how you go. Hope this helps.

Geof.

 

[Sceadwian]

Well the cans would be recycled anyways, there's a 5 cent deposit on all aluminum cans, the people that don't care and throw them out keep the local homeless population employed collecting cans.

260z, I understand age hardening (also called precipitation hardening) as I understand it the metal is heated up and quenched to reset the structure of the metal, some alloys will age harden at room temperature but others require the material to be raised in temperature (500 degrees or so I believe) for the hardening to occur. As I understand it with aluminum what occurs is the alloying metals form nucleation sites, and the precipitation hardening causes those nucleation sites to form crystalline structures, slightly elevating the temperature depending on the alloy helps the process occur. As I understand it 'in the old days' aluminum rivets for airplanes were made this way. After quenching they were stored in a container full of dry ice to keep the temperature low so the metal stayed soft, after they were actually riveted in place they would age harden at room temperature.

Aluminum's annealing temperature depends on the alloy and it's between 400 and 600 degrees or so. I was able to find information on 7000 series aluminum which age hardens at 160 degrees C

From what little information I can find 3000 and 5000 series aluminum don't respond to precipitation hardening.

 

[Sceadwian]

Looks like 3000 series can be work hardened though the alloy listed for beverage cans is already full hard right off the press. Least I know what I got to work with now =)

 

[cobra1]

I work in an aluminium foundry if you have any specific questions, havnt read the entire thread, just skim reading it.

 

[Sceadwian]

Nothing I can think of cobra right now, the only specific question I had in mind got answered between here and Google. Suffice to say that aluminum beverage cans can not be made any harder than they naturally are after being manufactured.

 

[atferrari]

Have you ever considered asking Alcoa? They are producers after all.