Hydrogen on demand and can switch on and off patent

[mramos1]

Found this forum talking about a guy that can make lots of hydrogen with colloidal metals, turns out there is a US patent with details from August 2006.

I first noted the battery and switch (switch that shorts the battery), but if you read down in the experiments, and of course there was 2 videos on the forum. The battery is not needed, maybe to unplate the metals?

Company name is Airgen.

If this guy really has this, not sure why we have not seen it yet? But this could be big.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

If this guy really has this, not sure why we have not seen it yet? But this could be big.

Depends if it works or not?, having a patent granted doesn't mean very much, it's probably yet another 'spoof' design?.

 

[Oznog]

As you probably know, a patent does not mean the process is proven in any way. It doesn't show a process is legitimate.

Catalysts promote reactions, but they don't change the energy required. The idea that it could produce hydrogen without the required energy input is impossible. Much like the other thousand claims out there.

 

[mramos1]

Producing hydrogen in a car makes since as there is extra power waste from the alt. So for the home I agree..

But his claims and video show no power to it. Said that if he shorts two metals in the mixed of three colloidal liquid it runs, and open the switch it stops. I can get links to the videos.

 

[Oznog]

Producing hydrogen in a car makes since as there is extra power waste from the alt.

The alternator does not produce waste power. The alternator produces only a slight load on the belt when it has no output, but all the electrical power you take off it loads down the engine through the belt.

The alternator has little ability to slow the engine noticibly. The biggest alternators are on the scale of 3 hp electrical output. They'll suck a bit more than 3 hp off the engine which is not very noticible on a big engine. You'd see it in the mpg figures if you bother to test with a high alternator load vs minimum load.

 

[Pommie]

This appears to be a chemical process. If I take aluminium and hydrochloric acid I end up with aluminium chloride and hydrogen gas. The aluminium is consumed. This patent seems to be a mixture of metals and acids/bases that produce hydrogen on demand. The only difference between this and throwing aluminium foil in Lye (sodium hydroxide) is that this is controllable and therefore useful in a lab.

Mike.

 

[tytower]

It looks to me that this will all go into a vehicle and its hydrogen output fed to a fuel cell which will produce electrical power for the electric drive of the vehicle .

What it has to do with Alternators is zero for a start

All of this is well advanced technology except for the production of the gas which is bought in at present. Gas on demand means it can be produced intermitently when the fuel cell runs out

 

[Sceadwian]

Considering the chemicals you'd need to use to mix to create your fuel likley cost more than gasoline, and they're highly dangerous to humans and require special DOT handling procedures for transport let alone use in an automobile it's completly silly. You're going to get more efficient energy storage if you just increase the fuel cell size into the space the hydrogen generating 'plant' is. If it's economically feasable at all it'd be in huge quantites at a refineing plant, not in the vehicle itself, that just makes no sense.

 

[tytower]

Considering the chemicals you'd need to use to mix to create your fuel likley cost more than gasoline, and they're highly dangerous to humans and require special DOT handling procedures for transport let alone use in an automobile it's completly silly. You're going to get more efficient energy storage if you just increase the fuel cell size into the space the hydrogen generating 'plant' is. If it's economically feasable at all it'd be in huge quantites at a refineing plant, not in the vehicle itself, that just makes no sense.

Err, no I think you are missing the main point. The device produces hydrogen on demand . A closed plant as small as it is in the boot would be just the same risk as a cylinder of hydrogen. You would not be handling any chemicals would you?
The idea is to produce a plant that can be safely carried round in the boot

 

[Sceadwian]

It produces hydrogen on demand from concentrated chemical reagents, just as dangerous as toteing around liquified or compressed hydrogen.

 

[Hero999]

They'll suck a bit more than 3 hp off the engine which is not very noticible on a big engine. You'd see it in the mpg figures if you bother to test with a high alternator load vs minimum load.

I though that alternators were horribly inefficient (50% is typical) so you'd draw 6hp, still nothing even on a small car with an output of 60hp.

 

[mramos1]

I have a fellow that is going to install the cell I made in his car (a jeep) and tell me the results. He travels all day long..

We can see if the additional alternator draw counters the gas the goes in the intake. Anything beyond this in hydrogen right now, it just takes too much power to make the gas to me..

 

[Sceadwian]

What you're going to end up with is an overly complicated electrochemical capacitor which wastes energy at every conversion stage. Instead of generating electricty from the process of the primary cell, it's being used to directly electrolyse the water and the hydrogen gas generated is being used for a fuel cell to convert it back into electricty? If you can't see the fundamental flaw in that kind of setup no amount of disuasion is going to stop you, but it's your money.

 

[Sceadwian]

Something caught my eye in the patent text when I was scanning it.

"Background"
[0003]
Where it refered to H2 as elemental hydrogen, which is a really silly error to make. Elemental hydrogen means only one hydrogen atom, not two. No technical document that makes that kind of 'gaffe' shouldn't be taken very seriously.

 

[mramos1]

What you're going to end up with is an overly complicated electrochemical capacitor which wastes energy at every conversion stage. Instead of generating electricty from the process of the primary cell, it's being used to directly electrolyse the water and the hydrogen gas generated is being used for a fuel cell to convert it back into electricty? If you can't see the fundamental flaw in that kind of setup no amount of disuasion is going to stop you, but it's your money.

It was not complex. It is a sealed case (old water filter unit from when I moved in this house and I doubled its size and saved the old one), stainless steel, water and a battery. Only one complex chemical (H2O), only one complex element (Stainless steel; if that is an element) and +/- power (I have 12 volts DC batteries all over so that was not so complex).

I was bored.

Bubbles came out after a couple of minutes (I was schocked), lit one and boom. My kids and I thought it was sort of cool (kids were scared/smart and left; they were loud). It draws so little, 4 D cells will run it.. A friend wants to put it in his car. I said OK..

What is the harm in showing one more thing that does not work? But I hear you and understand your point.

But it is low power and does not get hot. I was sure it would get hot and saw that water is not that great a conductor. I talked to a chemist friend and first thing he asked was is it exothermal (sp) and I said what?. He said how hot does it get.

A very low current draw and a fair amount of gas. So my thought, low power for a little gas, will that boost the mileage. I have a condensor in my car, I remove it and lose 40-50 miles per tank. Problem is, the large engine in my car I have no room for this thing. Another friend said put it in my jeep and we can see if it works.

Now this is the point were I say, it did not do what I expected. It did not get hot.. So why not mix a little of its gas in the carb (air filter) and see what happends?

Hey, I was bored over the holiday, built a game show buzzer (I found an old schematic I did for a guy here and said let's make one). The kids and I just wasted a couple more hours tonight with it. I spent time with the kids and most of the questions were educational.. One was "name a Spice girl". And no one got it (I was the game show controller so I could not play).

Also, my friend is a chemist not an EE. He sent me this knowing not to talk his language... Hope he does not mind me posting this one. And he will never wind up here. I called him to see why this worked.

His comment to that EMAIL.

Water is an interesting compound, because of its structure it is in an interesting natural resonance. Without getting too technical, the electrical charges do not balance on the bonds, so the H=O=H double bonds (not truly double bonds) have to share charges. This is done by the charge resonating through the bonds from one side to the other:
+H-O=H- <--> -H=O-H+
This is because Oxygen is normally a -2 charge and Hydrogen is a +1 charge.
In order to maintain this structure it resonates.
When you place an electrical charge through the water (pure water does not conduct electricity much) electrolytes in the water (salts, acids) conduct electricity and this pulls the bonds apart by attracting the uneven resonance charges. Depending on how strong the electrolytes (salts, acids), temperature, etc.; this influences how much current is needed to break the bonds, each at their repective electrodes. The hydrogens join to form Hydrogen gas. Which is very stable; and the oxygens to form Oxygen gas. The electrodes give the missing charge through electricity to form the stable bonds.
Is that what you wanted to hear? I hope so. Otherwise, I am not sure what you want me to say. I could say it works because God wanted it to work that way, but that doesn't quite explain it.
That is why resonance frequency can influence the power needed to break the bonds. If you can resonate the molecule at its natural frequency it is just like a glass. It resonates itself, stretching the bonds. Thus less electrical energy is needed to break it apart. Which you probably already know.
In the Linnard Griffin process, he uses metal catalysts to lower the energy needed to break the bonds. This is a chemical reaction.
OK, I've babbled enough. Thanks for your help.

 

[Sceadwian]

You didn't describe the cell you made mramos, I was describing the cell in the patent. You said "cell I built", I was assuming it was linked to the patent one. To avoid further miscommunication fully describing exactly your intent and methods might help =)

 

[Sceadwian]

If you're talking about using a slow draw from the alternator over time to separate the hydrogen and oxygen in the water that's okay, but only for peak power. I'd be curious to see how much separated hydrogen and oxygen could be added to the vehicles normal fuel/air mixture. I don't know the temperature/pressure required to make a hydrogen oxygen mixture combust but if it closely enough matches the native compression ratio of the car it would make a self recharging turbo booster just add water.

Even if you do that, it's still going to result in less gas mileage, because no matter how much you note that the sollution didn't heat up, it did, at least a few degrees and that's wasted energy to heat, in the volumes you end up with the thermal loss makes total system efficiency pretty horrible.

 

[mramos1]

If you're talking about using a slow draw from the alternator over time to separate the hydrogen and oxygen in the water that's okay, but only for peak power. I'd be curious to see how much separated hydrogen and oxygen could be added to the vehicles normal fuel/air mixture. I don't know the temperature/pressure required to make a hydrogen oxygen mixture combust but if it closely enough matches the native compression ratio of the car it would make a self recharging turbo booster just add water.

I am talking a low draw from the alternator. Basically boost the octane.

Native is a word that sort of fits as old cars have tach/dwel/jets and new have computers. But if it looks like better gas and the drag on the alternator/generator is low? Now under the hot hood it could change things too.

But it is an idea I had. And the Chemist "Dave" is working on the patent for fun as his hobby (and my lord we can not talk trades but he did make a simple version of breakig up water for me that I dropped at the bottom of my last post.). I did some electronics for him to time his changes to the patent mentioned in this thread. My project is something unrelated.. Sorry I mixed them.

I was hopping around. Saw your posted that a Chemist was stupid because he put H2 for H (assuming his assistant did not write it) and it can never work. And dropped in my weird findings on water and metal project I did months ago. Trust me, I am no expert in this field but I was impressed. Are you a Chemist and Electronic guy both? Etiher way I need room in the garage and this thing goes to a guy with a Jeep and I gain space.

Even if you do that, it's still going to result in less gas mileage, because no matter how much you note that the sollution didn't heat up, it did, at least a few degrees and that's wasted energy to heat, in the volumes you end up with the thermal loss makes total system efficiency pretty horrible.

In time we will see.. I can feel it is slightly warm in the center. I think there is a lot of waste under the hood of a car. This is the only "real" project I have worked on in Hydrogen since it takes so much power to make little gas. I think the alternator pumps whatever you need and the mileage does not really change a lot for less than an amp. I might be (or in your case "am") wrong.

Gonna go to work with the radio off this week and save some money..

Just kidding with you, but that might work for my son.

 

[Sceadwian]

I think you're missing a fundamental understanding of basic thermodynamics. When you use electricity to split water (or any hydrogen containing substance) into issolated hydrogen gas you lose some of that energy as heat in the process, that energy is lost and can never be regained. The same thing is going to happen when you use some method to turn that hydrogen back into useable energy. You're drawing energy from the alternator and using it to covert a liquid into a gas that is easy to extract energy from, and then using that gas in some process to gain useable energy. The entire process can be made more efficiant by simply NOT drawing energy in the first place. The alternator does not waste any electricty when it's not driving a load, as soon as you connect a device to the alternator it creates a load and draws energy from the engine. You're just moving it around and wasteing tonnes of it in the process. I'm not trying to prove you wrong here but you seem to have a lack of basic physics let alone what use hydrogen can be for a power source.
If it's how you want to spend your time, so be it, but you'd be better spending your time understanding why it is things like that aren't practical.

 

[mramos1]

I think you're missing a fundamental understanding of basic thermodynamics. When you use electricity to split water (or any hydrogen containing substance) into issolated hydrogen gas you lose some of that energy as heat in the process, that energy is lost and can never be regained.

I thought converted to some other form of energy? Power turns to heat and gas. When burns it become heat and water. Nothing is lost, only what part was I able to use and yes I know it is not possible. You are missing the fact that I am going to see what it does. I think we covered this enough times.

The same thing is going to happen when you use some method to turn that hydrogen back into useable energy. You're drawing energy from the alternator and using it to covert a liquid into a gas that is easy to extract energy from, and then using that gas in some process to gain useable energy. The entire process can be made more efficiant by simply NOT drawing energy in the first place. The alternator does not waste any electricty when it's not driving a load, as soon as you connect a device to the alternator it creates a load and draws energy from the engine. You're just moving it around and wasteing tonnes of it in the process. I'm not trying to prove you wrong here but you seem to have a lack of basic physics let alone what use hydrogen can be for a power source.
If it's how you want to spend your time, so be it, but you'd be better spending your time understanding why it is things like that aren't practical.

I really have no interest in understanding hydogen. What part about, I read an article, made a cell (as it was too simple), giving it to someone to play with.

Believe it or not, there are people out there that do not know electronics, but come here, get a circuit, make the circuit and are happy (and do not want to understand electronics). Better chance the circuit will work than this I agree.

Anyway, this repeating is getting old. I think you made you point and I tryied to make mine.