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How to seperate myself from the piles of other applicants?

Nigel Goodwin

Super Moderator
Most Helpful Member
#21
..it needs to be hard for the "Group 1" people above...but does not need to be anywhere near so hard for the "group 2" people.
The 'group 2' people shouldn't be taking a degree then :D

If you're talking about NOT doing integrals (and similar maths), then it's not really going to be any kind of worthwhile course - perhaps you could rename it '11 plus' :p

Integrals and differentiation were part of O Level Maths when I was at school, and we also did it at college - ETV day release course (Electronics and TeleVision).
 

Flyback

Well-Known Member
#22
The 'group 2' people shouldn't be taking a degree then
..I dont really care what its called. But its a fact that such a course is needed, and a fact that such a course does not currently exist.. And a fact that nobody, certainly nobody in UK, is even aware that such a course is actually needed. Even electronics companies do not want such a course because they are afraid that the influx of excellently skilled staff may end up helping their competitors and they may not manage to get one of the electronics "aces".

If you're talking about NOT doing integrals
..so every time somebody designs a smps they've got to derive the integral and then do the integration?...waste of time...you'd never get to market on time...just sufficient to know what integration is, have a couple of goes at doing it at college, then kiss it goodbye, and get on with the work...unless of course youre a "Group one" person, in which case you keep doing integrals.
 

Nigel Goodwin

Super Moderator
Most Helpful Member
#23
..I dont really care what its called. But its a fact that such a course is needed, and a fact that such a course does not currently exist.. And a fact that nobody, certainly nobody in UK, is even aware that such a course is actually needed. Even electronics companies do not want such a course because they are afraid that the influx of excellently skilled staff may end up helping their competitors and they may not manage to get one of the electronics "aces".
Only you think it is - the rest of the world has moved on.

..so every time somebody designs a smps they've got to derive the integral and then do the integration?...waste of time...you'd never get to market on time...just sufficient to know what integration is, have a couple of goes at doing it at college, then kiss it goodbye, and get on with the work...unless of course youre a "Group one" person, in which case you keep doing integrals.
It's not a question of 'doing it', but of KNOWING how to do it - I wouldn't have a clue now how to do it, it's been far too many decades.
 
Thread starter #24
For many students this year in industry is the only work experience they will get, in fact I guarantee you over 90% of students will have that as their only work experience. Now when you are applying for jobs without this then you are facing a MASSIVE problem since no one wants to take you on.

Not doing it to do a course would only contribute to this 'group one' effect your talking about?

Other countries like Germany get by better, and always report a trade surplus, because they actually help each other along with teamworking in their industry, and they have practical courses set up by retired German engineers who do it out of love of Germany.
This has happened before ( Germany Under Bismarck) while the uk let its own citizens starve in the workshops. Only thing were good is diplomacy.
 

Flyback

Well-Known Member
#25
yes but my course would be run as a "job", you would be told to make stuff and to a timescale etc, like a job...better than making tea and saying hello to customers in the year in industry...you'd be making power supplies that could be useful to industry, -the industrys would respect it more than a "year out"...when it got established the industrys would call for my "job course" instead of the poxy "year in industry", which is a total waste of time....any wanted features of the "year in industry" can be incorporated into my course...discipline?...no problem, you can be up for 6am , go for a 5 mile run, then come in for work...whatever you can get in a "year in industry", you can get it on my "job course". (i agree with you though that at the moment thats all you have)

So yes John Murdock, the "year in industry" is better than nothing, but only because my course doesnt exist for you, but yes.....definetely do the year in industry...absolutely. Waste of time in real terms but in reality you MUST, MUST do it becuase its all there is.


Only you think it is - the rest of the world has moved on.
yes the rest of the world other than uk has moved on and left uk behind, thats why we report big trade deficit every year, but its ok cuzz we have north sea oil to make up for it, but when that runs out we will crash badly.

“integration” of a waveform is a pious sounding word for saying that you are going to take an average of it over a certain time span…or an average of the square of it over a time span that is a period(s), -as in RMS finding……anybody that understands what finding the average is can understand integration…no need to drill it to death for 'group 2' people.
 
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DerStrom8

Super Moderator
Most Helpful Member
#26
Sorry, but you're talking nonsense - ALL Bachelor are obviously pre-Phd, but courses certainly aren't there just to prepare you to do a Phd. In any case, you would normally do a Masters between the two.

If the course is hard, it's because it needs to be - and is why UK degrees are highly respected throughout the world.

The problem with your course is that people take it who know nothing about Electronics, and you're REALLY going to struggle under those circumstances.

A Uni friend of my daughter did Electronics, she never saw him - he was too busy trying to keep up with the workload, as he had no electronics experience. Eventually he dropped out, just a couple of weeks before his finals :(

What you appear to suggesting is simple College classes, rather than degree courses - as used to be common (Hnd and Hnc etc.)
Yet another example of Flyback thinking the Industry (and the rest of the world) should cater to his lazy tendencies. Similar to his thread complaining about a company he used to work for using software he didn't know how to use. He was saying that the company should change their standards rather than simply learning how to use the software. :facepalm:
 

Flyback

Well-Known Member
#27
Similar to his thread complaining about a company he used to work for using software he didn't know how to use.
That thread is where i specifically state that it matters not one jot what software i can personally use...it states that their is a big shortage of PCB layout engineers (in uk anyway), and that a software should be brought in that stops this.......one such software exists ,eagle......but it doesnt do bus routing and track pushing.
There are quite a few people, who can use the software, but dont know the principles of eg SMPS layout such as star grounding etc...a simpler software could redress the issue......it CAN be done simply...Eagle prooves that.
And are we surprised that Eagle is German?….Eagle is made by the one country in Europe that its engineers and people know about “teamwork”, and working effectively….This is why Germany was the worlds biggest exporter by capital in 2014 (obviously by volume its China).

Eagle is the most common pcb layout package used in germany for non motherboard type pcb’s.....thats saying something.

Yet another example of Flyback thinking the Industry (and the rest of the world) should cater to his lazy tendencies
Lazy?....that course took me a good bit of hard work to write.
Attached is one bit of it on pcb layout
 

Attachments

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#28
I have yet to meet a professional company that uses Eagle. I think it alienates engineers experienced in other packages (I have used Protel99SE - Altium's grandfather, Cadstar and Proteus) with its interface. Time is my most valuable asset and I simply cannot be bothered to invest any more time in learning an arcane interface that is so different to everything else I have used.

I now have a personal copy of Proteus for my own jobs - it cost me less than a copy of Eagle business standard edition and I find the work flow of Proteus much more productive.

When you go to work you have to use what package the company has a license for. In addition to this, you cannot expect to change the industry - Eagle is totally outclassed for high end designs and is abhorred by many for its interface (every piece of software has lovers and haters).
 

Flyback

Well-Known Member
#29
In addition to this, you cannot expect to change the industry
Very true, but if you are in UK, and your country has been reporting a large trade deficit for the last 16 years, then you cant help wanting to see changes that will make your country’s industry more successful. Especially when the lifeline of UK, north sea oil, is about to run out.
I have yet to meet a professional company that uses Eagle.
It’s the most common package in Germany & China for non motherboard type PCBs.
Germany in 2014 was the worlds biggest exporter by capital.
China is regularly the worlds biggest exporter by volume.
(in both cases, much of that is electronics)

I must admit I don’t care what the interface looks like, as long as it has clarity, and the package can do the job efficiently, which Eagle can.
Nobody in UK wants to use Eagle because its perceived that the bigger money is payed with Altium etc
 
#30
It’s the most common package in Germany & China for non motherboard type PCBs.
Germany in 2014 was the worlds biggest exporter by capital.
China is regularly the worlds biggest exporter by volume.
(in both cases, much of that is electronics)
I go out to China (Shenzhen - China's 'Electronics' city) quite often and I can guarantee you that Eagle is hardly used out there. Everyone uses (dubiously licensed) Altium as it is perceived as being the most productive.

I must admit I don’t care what the interface looks like, as long as it has clarity, and the package can do the job efficiently, which Eagle can.
Nobody in UK wants to use Eagle because its perceived that the bigger money is payed with Altium etc
I know quite a few people that have progressed away from Eagle and they all comment that their productivity is much higher (i.e. less time spent to design a board) and that other packages make more sense. I also fall into this camp, I do not find Eagle efficient at all. Of course, this all subjective and I suggest you download demo versions of other packages and invest a little time. You may wish to stick with Eagle or move away from it, but at the very least you will be able to handle whatever software your employer throws at you.
 

Flyback

Well-Known Member
#31
In China they all share knowledge with each other about Altium useage......this makes them all expert, as the gov't owns all companies, and they ensure people share knowledge to the common cause of making china the economic miracle that it is. In this country PCB layout is done by "loan guns" who keep all their altium secrets to themselves.
Eagle is so easy, theres no secrets, knowledge on it is all over the web, anyone can use it.
All the schems and layouts ive ever had from china companies have all been in eagle.
I doubt if either of us has in depth knowledge about the entirity of the chinese electronics industry, its vast...most of it westerners wont be allowed to go into.
 

DerStrom8

Super Moderator
Most Helpful Member
#32
In China they all share knowledge with each other about Altium useage......this makes them all expert, as the gov't owns all companies, and they ensure people share knowledge to the common cause of making china the economic miracle that it is. In this country PCB layout is done by "loan guns" who keep all their altium secrets to themselves.
Eagle is so easy, theres no secrets, knowledge on it is all over the web, anyone can use it.
All the schems and layouts ive ever had from china companies have all been in eagle.
I doubt if either of us has in depth knowledge about the entirity of the chinese electronics industry, its vast...most of it westerners wont be allowed to go into.
Have you even looked at a lot of the products coming out of China? Many, many of the employees of the companies there are nowhere near experts. And the reason China is "the economic miracle that it is" is because many Chinese companies tend to cut a LOT of corners and use the cheapest materials possible (even sacrificing quality). You clearly don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. I would guess that the reason that most of the designs coming from China are done in Eagle is because they don't want to spend enough money to obtain a more powerful software package that can do more in less time. The Chinese companies tend not to worry so much about time, since they have many more employees than American or European companies do. In America or Europe, however, fewer employees means more time is required to do the work, which further means that better, more powerful tools are required. This is COMMON SENSE!
 
#33
I would guess that the reason that most of the designs coming from China are done in Eagle is because they don't want to spend enough money to obtain a more powerful software package that can do more in less time.
For the record, I think this point is not a concern in China if you catch my drift ;).

Flyback: try other packages. I'm out.
 

DerStrom8

Super Moderator
Most Helpful Member
#34
Flyback: try other packages. I'm out.
That's just it, he's too stubborn to realize that he is the problem. He needs to expand his horizons and spend time to learn how to use the software commonly used in the industry. If he took the time to do that rather than wasting time online complaining about how the industry won't cater to his laziness, then he'd be more successful.
 

Flyback

Well-Known Member
#35
Once you have learned Altium, and are in the Altium “club”, then it is definitely in your own personal financial interest to trash “easy to learn” PCB Layout programs such as Eagle. This is because Eagle provides a simple means whereby people can quickly “get up to speed” and start competing with people such as yourselves in the PCB layout labour market.
The problem with learning Alitum, is that there is no free trial version for people to download to learn it, and the full version is too expensive for an individual to afford. Also, Altium has far less decent web based tutorials conducive to learning. This is partly because it’s a “gravy train”, and many of the Altium reps are moonlighting as layout engineers, so the last thing they actually want is for many people to easily be able to jump on the Altium “band-wagon”.
This isn’t being cynical, this is just pointing out what is basically “standard business practice”, and the general behaviour of people in “self-interest”. You just hope that Electronics company owners and engineering managers can see through it.
Also, I doubt there are many bootlegged Altium versions in China…..what happens if you get a file crash and can’t open it, and need Altiums support to retrieve your work?…if you’re using a bootlegged version of Altium, then you won’t get help.
Altium is just too big, and too full of potential problems to risk having much of your PCB work in it if you only have a bootlegged version.

This is why Chinese electronics companies use Eagle for the most part. -Don't expect them to tell that to Westerners though....they don't want us to improve our Electronics capability....obviously, because then they wouldnt manage to sell so much electronics to the west..thats just common business practice.....so yes, no doubt when you go there to China, they tell you they are using Altium.....then when you are gone, back out comes the Eagle PCB layout software!!

Here is the low-down on PCB layout software.
http://www.electro-tech-online.com/...sts-of-pcb-layout-program-use-ability.147026/
 
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DerStrom8

Super Moderator
Most Helpful Member
#36
Once you have learned Altium, and are in the Altium “club”, then it is definitely in your own personal financial interest to trash “easy to learn” PCB Layout programs such as Eagle.
That's because you get a feel for what PCB design can do and how much time is saved if you use a more powerful, more complete tool. I once did a board in Eagle that took me four hours to route. I then tried doing the same board in Altium and it only took me 1.5 hours. When timing is important, Eagle just doesn't cut it. It takes too long and doesn't have the tools that Altium (or other more powerful software) does. Being in the Altium "club" is not a bad thing. I'm not "trashing" easy-to-learn PCB layout programs (I still like Eagle), and I'm not gaining anything financially by saying that Altium is more powerful and makes board design faster and easier. I'm stating an undeniable FACT.

The problem with learning Alitum, is that there is no free trial version for people to download to learn it
False. There has always been a trial version for Altium. That's how I was first able to try it about 5 years ago.

and the full version is too expensive for an individual to afford.
True, but we are talking about industry, not individual, hobby-level board design.

Also, Altium has far less decent web based tutorials conducive to learning.
False. Their tech docs are very detailed and give you all of the information you need about every tool.

This isn’t being cynical, this is just pointing out what is basically “standard business practice”, and the general behaviour of people in “self-interest”.
You're not in a position to point anything out. You wimped out of actually learning how to use the software, and have no experience with it. You haven't had the experience in professional PCB design because you're too stubborn and lazy to do the work required to succeed in the workplace.
 

Flyback

Well-Known Member
#37
True, but we are talking about industry, not individual, hobby-level board design.
If it was affordable, then engineers (not hobbyists) could learn it at home, then go forward for jobs in it in professional places.
I once did a board in Eagle that took me four hours to route. I then tried doing the same board in Altium and it only took me 1.5 hours.
DDR4 type boards and motherboards etc, have never been for Eagle, thats always been acknowledged.
 

DerStrom8

Super Moderator
Most Helpful Member
#38
If it was affordable, then engineers (not hobbyists) could learn it at home, then go forward for jobs in it in professional places.
That's what the trial version is for, if you actually take the time to sit down on your own and explore its features. This has been my point from the beginning -- Use the trial versions (one at a time) and spend LOTS of your own personal time playing with them and learning how to use them. Then, by the time you're hired, you have experience with a broad collection of different software, and will be better prepared for whatever software is used by the company that hires you.

That's how I learned how to use Altium in the first place. Like I said, I installed the trial version about 5 years ago and spent some time to learn how it worked, explored its features, and got the feel for it. When the Altium trial period was over, I moved on to KiCAD, tried it for a while, got the feel for it, then moved on to Proteus, etc. Then, 4 years later, I was hired as a PCB designer by my current employer. They use Altium here, and since I took the time 4 years before to get a feel for Altium, I was able to get back into it with little trouble. Do you at least see the point i'm trying to make here? You need to show some initiative yourself by exploring different software and taking advantage of their free trials. THAT is how you learn. You don't ask the company to use simpler software, because you don't learn anything that way, and you ask the company to downgrade to software that will require more time from their employees (and thus, cost them more money).
 

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