How to Protect from copycats?

[Screech]

9 months later and I have finally designed a working model.
Problem is:
How do i protect my circuit from others.
I thought of seeling it with ????, but how do I do future repairs?

People will try to work out how my circuit works, especially after it stops working from old age.

Can you buy capacitors that look like resistors, and chips that look like other chips, and so on?

 

[samcheetah]

what does the project do???? does it have a microcontroller? if yes than it will be easy, just code protect it. and nobody will be able to disassemble it. if its something related to glue-logic and u are using alot of logic ICs u can replace them with a single PLD (a GAL for instance). there are limitless possibilities but all of that depends on the knowledge of the construction of your project.

 

[Phasor]

Some circuits are sealed in opaque epoxy, so none of the circuit is visible. It is near impossible to remove the epoxy without breaking the board. Repairs are impossible.

For ICs and transistors, you can scratch the numbers off.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

9 months later and I have finally designed a working model.
Problem is:
How do i protect my circuit from others.
I thought of seeling it with ????, but how do I do future repairs?

As already suggested, you can scrape the numbers off IC's, or you can encapsulate the entire board in expoxy resin or similar. In which case it can't ever be repaired - if it's a commercial project, and you're making massive profits on it, that's probably your only choice. A far better idea is to manufacture it at a reasonable cost, then there's no incentive to reverse engineer it.

However, if you do encapsulate it, this may well put off many purchasers, who wants to buy a non-repairable product?.

People will try to work out how my circuit works, especially after it stops working from old age.

It's often fairly obvious how a circuit works, just from what it does - if there truly is some new design feature you could try patenting it, but it doesn't really give much protection unless you have bottomless pockets and good lawyers

 

[Screech]

My project does not use any microcontrollers.
i didn't know about those programeble logic ic's, but i won't be neading them.

Looks like I will have to use the epoxy.

Thanks.

 

[Screech]

However, if you do encapsulate it, this may well put off many purchasers, who wants to buy a non-repairable product?.

They wont know it's non-repairable.
It will be in a shiny box.
I will give a full replaceable warranty if it malfanctions.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

However, if you do encapsulate it, this may well put off many purchasers, who wants to buy a non-repairable product?.

They wont know it's non-repairable.
It will be in a shiny box.
I will give a full replaceable warranty if it malfanctions.

In that case fill it with potting epoxy, it's designed for the purpose, and doesn't place undue stress on the components as it cures.

I've seem silicon rubber used for potting as well, but it's too easy to scrape off for your requirements.

 

[pike]

screech what is it exactly that you are pedeling here?? (if you don't mind asking). Don't worry i'm 15 i'm not of any threat to you.

 

[zevon8]

Be sure to use a proper encapsulating compund thou, or you can guarantee failures. I have used polyurethane resins like Amathane with great success. I would also remove chip markings though,.. unless they are simple logic gates or op-amps, which can be easily figured out. remember tho, nearly all potting compounds can be removed with solvents and alot of patience. Surface mount parts on a very thin PCB can help deter reverse engineering, you can use the potting compound for structural support.

like Nigel said tho, profit will always determine the wether or not someone will reverse engineer something. keeping the price down often deters.

 

[andrew2022]

a cheap way to copyright stuff is send the drawings etc in a sealed bag which will show all attempts at openin in and send it to urself by registered post (because of the date stamp). if needed, open it in court infront of judge which will prove u had the plans first

 

[grrr_arrghh]

People will try to work out how my circuit works

is what you've made really so revolutionary that people will be desparate to make their own? (I mean apart from hobyists, cos they'll reverse engineer anything...)

are you maybe just be paranoid and overprotective (I don't mean that in an offensive way)

Tim

 

[Oznog]

Encapsulation is not only non-repairable, it has other potential problems, at least from what I saw when researching it awhile ago.

Heat doesn't dissipate inside encapsulation. If you've got a component which makes a lot of heat, or some which are heat-sensitive, problems are possible. I also read where thermal expansion coefficients can cause a lot of stresses on components & the board. Even if the epoxy doesn't expand, the components/board can, creating stresses.

Realistically, would someone who knew enough to copy a circuit not be able to just make one of his own? Especially if you're wiping off the markings from the chips. I've seen chip values wiped, but never resistors or capacitors. And I could probably beat encapsulants if I really wanted to, though it would take a whole new level of determination.

 

[Klaus]

From an electronic technician's point of view (who has come across many sealed circuits) you will not gain a favourable impression of your product if you sell it worldwide.
Consider this: your gadget has worked for years but someone had managed to break a wire coming out of it (or something like that). It COULD be repaired and fixing it would be simple IF ONLY the original wire attachment were accessible. If the item came from overseas, it is perhaps no longer in production and trying to get any repairs affected is often too costly to consider.

You may gather from this that I hate :evil: sealed circuit boards. I also find the practice of grinding off IC numbers childish and counterproductive in the long run. What's wrong with somebody other than yourself wanting to repair the item?
If somebody REALLY wanted to copy the design the'll find ways to do it, there's little you could do to prevent it anyway, if it happens, unless you have access to lawyers and heaps of funds to pay them with.
The best advice I can give you is make the most of the time advantage you have before somebody finds it worthwhile to copy it (you should be flattered if somebody actually does :wink: ).

Having said that, I do realise that sometimes, for reasons of the hostile enviroment the gadget is been used in (underwater, explosion proof, high voltage, on spacecraft, etc, encapsulation IS required but these items are not designed for repair anyway.
Encapsulating something just for the sake of stopping copycats is a waste of time, IMO.

Make it very obvious that it is a non repairable item if you encapsulate it, taking special consideration that any connections / controls to it are bullet proof and outlast the parts inside, so nobody would even consider attempting any repair.

Electronics is such a rapidly changing and developing business that your project has a good chance of being out dated in a short time anyway.

Now, stop being so mysterious and tell us what wonderful circuit you have come up with and where to buy it if we all must have one :lol:
Klaus

 

[samcheetah]

why dont u believe in "open source". just leave it as it is. let the others know what u did. they might duplicate it. and then they might enhance it. this process is really cool. look at linux for example. why do u think hundereds of computer users are turning towards linux everyday. its just because linux is open to u. u can do whatever u want with it.

i would say, dump the tension. give it to your freinds, tell them how u built it. and the next day they will start giving u suggestions. and then u will see that its really great to tell others what u have made. hiding knowledge from others doesnt increase it. but sharing knowledge does increase it

8)

 

[zevon8]

hopefully I'm not picking an argument here, but anyways...

Potting has many advantages, depending on the end-use of a product, not only discouraging "cheap imatators". Most decent businesses will not copy a product outright, and risk legal issues and their reputation.

One of the best defences against the "low-end" doing outright copies is to make it not worth their while. This can include removing IC numbers, etc. The reasoning behind this is that someone capable of reverse engineering a "black-box" can probably come up with their own design, and these people are usually expensive enough that the company hiring them can afford to just have them design their own in the first place. You really are only defending yourself from the person who spends $500 for PCB setup and assembly fees to make an exact duplicate of your product.

I have worked on many encapsulated products in my field, some crap, others well thought out. The better ones had extra heatsinking by using the case where possible, terminal strips or the like protruding from the potting for connections, and were generally made very rugged. Since most of the stuff I work on is used in the transportation/construction safety industry, it gets exposed to pretty brutal conditions, so potting is normal.

I agree with Klaus's suggestion that often the best you can do is make your money while you can, because if it becomes the next big thing, everyone will start making their own version anyways.

..just my 2 cents, I hope you are a success!

 

[Screech]

Thanks for your lengthly inputs and opinons guys.
I value very much what each of you had to say on this subject.
I shall weigh it all out.

thanks.