German V1 and V2 control systems and electronics discussion

[be80be]

still a challenge for nations with huge budgets

That's cause they use nut's that you could give a working idea and they could not implement it. Think about this they put men in a flying V1 to test it they died . But they made that happen.
Today they talk to much do to less and get less done. Then they worked till the made it happen.

 

[Musicmanager]

Is that the same museum which has functional Tiger and Leopard tanks?

No, I don't think so .. there are static displays of fighting vehicles, but they are 'static' ! As you might expect, Duxford has a heavy tilt towards flight .. ..

I think the Tank Museum at Bovington ( www.tankmuseum.org/home ) has the only working Tiger Tank, I don't know about a Leopard.

Duxford is Cambridgshire, Bovington is Dorset .. .. approx. 160 - 170 miles apart; by US standards .. 'not too far', but in UK - quite a journey !

S

 

[Les Jones]

The Deutsches Museum in Munich had a complete V2 on display when I visited in the late 1970's or early 1980's. The basic construction was very primitive mainly welded angle iron. As a child and teenager I had a fascination with pulse jets (like the V1) and always wanted to make one. I also read a lot about the V2 I remember trying to buy 100% hydrogen peroxide (Which was used to drive the fuel pumps in the V2.) at our local chemist (Pharmacist) (I think I had read that it could be used as an oxidising agent instead of liquid oxygen which was used in the V2) If you are ever in Munich the Deutsches Museum is well worth a visit. It will take a full day or more to get round it.

Les.

 

[JimB]

Whilst on the subject of museums in Germany, two very interesting technical museums are at Speyer and Sinsheim.
Look here:
https://speyer.technik-museum.de/en/
https://sinsheim.technik-museum.de/en/

The two museums are part of the same organisation and there are many similar exhibits.
Despite the duplication, they are both well worth a visit.

While you are in the area, the Hochenheim Ring and motor racing museum are nearby, in fact you drive past it on the autobahn from Speyer to Sinsheim.

JimB

 

[Musicmanager]

While you are in the area, the Hochenheim Ring and motor racing museum are nearby, in fact you drive past it on the autobahn from Speyer to Sinsheim.

Did you go for a spin Jim ?

S

 

[JimB]

Did you go for a spin Jim ?

No, I have not visited Hochenheim.

An interesting point, when hiring a car in Germany, there is often a clause in the agreement that the car must not be driven "Off Road".
This puzzled me for a while, I always associate off-road with mud, rocks and getting the tyres dirty.
Why would you want to get the tyres dirty on this:


Then the penny dropped, no thrashing it around the Nordschleife...
Look here:
https://www.greenhelldriving.nuerburgring.de/#/landing

JimB

 

[dr pepper]

Pilots were not sposed to nudge V1's, a reprimand was likely as it damaged valuable aircraft.

Tubes are not as reliable as electronics today, keeping them put of navigation systems as much as possible increased reliability, plus you'd probably need a lot of tubes to build an accelerometer.

 

[MaxHeadRoom78]

Pilots were not sposed to nudge V1's, a reprimand was likely as it damaged valuable aircraft.
.

A few Film records of V1's shot down by Spitfire

Max.

 

[tomizett]

I remember reading (probably only on Wikipedia, for what that's worth) that the Germans poineered the use of magnetic amplifiers for these machines as valves couldn't be counted on to work propperly under the heavy acceleration and vibration G-forces of a rocket. Mag amps are fascinating things in their own right - I'd like to do some more tinkering with them one day.

On the other hand, I believe that the radar proximity fuses manufactured in America did have valves in (ableit specialy designed ones) - and they would get fired out of guns, so it must have been possible to make them sufficiently robust.

It's tempting to think that you should be able to recreate this kind of stuff yourself in the shed 70 years later, but I don't know... The engineering these pople came up with just blows my mind every time!

 

[Les Jones]

I have only used a magnetic amplifier once. It was for quite a simple job. The factory where I worked at the time (Mid 1960s) made products (Valves for compressors etc.) that were surface ground and held on magnetic chucks. They originally just had a manual reversing switch to demagnetize them when removing the parts. I used one before the bridge rectifier to ramp down the current while pulsing a relay to reverse the polarity of the supply to the chuck. It did the job but the magnetic amplifier was quite expensive so there was only one unit was ever made.

Les.

 

[Colin]

And don't forget the high speed wire tape recorders used in the "U" submarines and the magnetic bomb. The first time the English had heard of the word Gauss.

 

[gary350]

I know all about the V1 & V2. A lot of what you read is wrong. V1 did not run out of fuel and crash. There is a tiny propeller on the nose of the V1 that turns to count miles. The V1 was fired off no different than artillery. They knew how far it was to London when it reached the predetermines miles the counter caused the rudder to go down all the way sending the V1 down at a steep angle. Germans used London radio to learn where the bomb landed to make corrections on range. England learned Germans were listening to London Radio station to make adjustments so Radio stations started giving out false information to make the Germans over shoot or under shooting London or shoot too far North or South to miss London. It was very primitive mechanical control that was accurate within about 5 miles. London was a big city so that was exceptable.

The guidance system was a compass. Engineers calculated wind speed then set the compass to fly up wind or down wind what every was required to hit the target. Basic high school geometry vector problems.

Elevation detector kept V1 at 1000 ft all the way to London but was changed to 1500 ft near the end of the war.

Flying speed in the beginning was 300 mph. That was soon increased to 350 then 380 then 400 then 420. Germans realized the fuel system was not large enough to go faster so the fuel regulator was redesigned that increased the speed to 480 mph. One more improvement was made the speed increased to 499 mph in tests but the war ended before any more could be launched at London.

Later in the war Germany made a change to the guidance system V1 was launched then about 60% into the trip the V1 made turn about 25 degree angle in a different direction to hit a different town. I forget the name of that town it had some military importance.

When the V1 launches fuel system pressure has to increase from 12 psi to 29 psi to counter act G forces for the Hydrogen Peroxide + Potassium Permangate steam launcher system that got the V1 up to 250 mph in about 7 seconds. Once the launch system stopped fuel pressure dropped to 12 psi as elevation increased. At high elevation air is thin the pulse jet engine will NOT run RICH but it will run LEAN engine can be throttled 75%. As elevation increased fuel system pressure had to slowly decrease to 9 psi to prevent the engine from running RICH and flaming out from thin air. The V1 had a duel fuel system ram air at 400 mph made the engine run LEAN so the 2nd fuel system added more fuel to increase speed an additions 40% faster.

I can tell you anything you want to know about the V1 & V2. I have all the drawings and all the German research data. After the War US military called there V1 program, JP Loon. They got the pulse jet engine up to 650 mph.

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Here are some of my pulse jet engines. A Real German V1 is in a storage building at the airport museum. I am trying to talk them into letting me restore the engine so we can fire it up for demonstrations. They are waiting for permission from higher up to decide what to do.
I have a lots of home built pulse jet engines some with Argus valves. I have PJ7 the one that is running red hot. PJ20 the one that has air intake like the SR71. The largest argus valve engine is a PJ100. No the German V2 is not faster than artillery on take off but at top speed it is traveling almost 4 miles per second. The German 88 is 2690 ft per second with a range of 6.15 miles straight up.

 

[dknguyen]

I remember reading (probably only on Wikipedia, for what that's worth) that the Germans poineered the use of magnetic amplifiers for these machines as valves couldn't be counted on to work propperly under the heavy acceleration and vibration G-forces of a rocket. Mag amps are fascinating things in their own right - I'd like to do some more tinkering with them one day.

On the other hand, I believe that the radar proximity fuses manufactured in America did have valves in (ableit specialy designed ones) - and they would get fired out of guns, so it must have been possible to make them sufficiently robust.

It's tempting to think that you should be able to recreate this kind of stuff yourself in the shed 70 years later, but I don't know... The engineering these pople came up with just blows my mind every time!

That's interesting because the British managed get tubes working on artillery shells for proxmity fuses. Do V2s accelerate faster than artillery shells? I find that hard to believe.

 

[be80be]

Just think what would of happen had they not been so worried about killing off all the clock makers.

 

[schmitt trigger]

I know all about the V1 & V2.

Gary, then could you kindly corroborate that the V1 actually used a mag-amp as an electronic control device?

 

[ronsimpson]

Do V2s accelerate faster than artillery shells? I find that hard to believe.

Artillery shells accelerate for the length of the barrel and then decelerate the rest of the trip.
My Dad shot a 155mm, 6.1" gun.
Barrel: 6.79m, 22ft 10 inch
Speed of projectile: 853m/s, 2799 ft/sec (2000miles/hour my math)
The projectile goes from 0 to 3000ft/sec in about 23 feet. ACCELERATION

The V1 flew at 640 km/h (400 mph) and took a great distance to get to speed.

 

[Pommie]

The projectile goes from 0 to 3000ft/sec in about 23 feet. ACCELERATION

V^2=2AS. A = V^2/2S = 3000^2/2*23 = 195,000 F/S^2 = about 6000 G.

Mike.

 

[gary350]

The V1 electronics are very simple. Gyro control & 2 air servos that control left/right movement and to keep wings level. 2 high pressure 2000 psi air tanks supply air to the controls. Elevation and compass device same as in airplanes keep V1 at 1000 ft elevation and on target. Controls were not good at making it fly in a perfect straight line it zig zags a few inches left right as it flies. No need for any type amplifier circuit. Battery supplies power to the controls. On the launch rail the V1 is plugged into ground control. They push a button to start the engine once engine is running good they push a button that releases the electrical connection to the V1. The release of the electrical connection puts the V1 on auto pilot engine goes to full throttle and the steam piston launches the V1. The V1 goes up about 10 degree angle to 1000 ft where the elevation device keeps it at 1000 ft. The V1 does not arm itself until it travels a certain distance about 1/4 mile determined by nose propeller. The V1 is on auto pilot all the way to target. When the nose propeller says it is at the target the tale elevator sends the V1 down at a steep angle. You can't get much simpler than this. Everything else is mechanical. Fuel system, fuel pressure regulator, air pressure regulator, air tanks, fuel tank, mechanical switches.

There are several air museum in the USA that have a V1, Smithsonian has 1 on the ceiling, Huntsville AL space center has 1 outside you can walk around it and touch it even look up the exhaust pipe. Tucson has 1 cut away so you can see inside. Maryland military museum has one. Hustsville AL has a V2. I was told of other museums that have a V1 but I not been there and don't remember where they are.


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[gary350]

Watch the video.

 

[gary350]

The V2 Rocket had a DC to AC dinamo generator that converted battery voltage to 27 volts AC, 500 Hz.