End of cheap made-in-China era?

[Reloadron]

Nop .... the proper word are " Greed " ..

NIKE has no reason to have an factory in Pakistan , and shell an pair of shoes for 200$ in US or elsewhere .

" Greed " are the key world , and the reason behind it , are all the stocks that you have hidden on you safe box... (generally speaking )

Cash them out and invest on your own business , or on your next door neighbor business.
Thats the only way , to restore things , and find back our humanity .

The thread title was:

End of cheap made-in-China era?

I simply said that if the Made In China era were to end that it would be replaced by a made somewhere else era. Hell, here in the US I see no shortage of "Made in Mexico" as well as China. I don't quite see how "greed" figures into things? Not as far as the thread title anyway?

Ron

 

[tvtech]

Its only Kiria... met him somewhere on the WEB..

Means well and so on. Being from Greece he struggles a bit with English. A good person who never attacks people. His mission is to educate people. Good for him.

Cheers

 

[Reloadron]

Its only Kiria... met him somewhere on the WEB..

Means well and so on. Being from Greece he struggles a bit with English. A good person who never attacks people. His mission is to educate people. Good for him.

Cheers

Cool with me. Hell I am in Cleveland, Ohio and I struggle with English. I see he was well intentioned, his reply just threw me a little.

Ron

 

[BrownOut]

Cool with me. Hell I am in Cleveland, Ohio and I struggle with English. I see he was well intentioned, his reply just threw me a little.

Ron

HAHA! That's funny. English is something that native speakers sometimes spend a lifetime learning. But the Nike comment was an excellent illustration of his point. Greed does drive alot of these phonomina. Peple rather like to buy cheap, throw away junk rather than quality durable junk. Nothing you can do about it though.

 

[Reloadron]

HAHA! That's funny. English is something that native speakers sometimes spend a lifetime learning. But the Nike comment was an excellent illustration of his point. Greed does drive alot of these phonomina. Peple rather like to buy cheap, throw away junk rather than quality durable junk. Nothing you can do about it though.

Hey we could start a new corporate greed thread but due to server space available for the forums it would need shut down quickly. Greed is an incredible driving force.

Now the Nike thing. I am sorry but fail to "get it". I look at a pair of Nike tennis shoes costing well in excess of $100 USD and wonder how a pair of tennis shoes costing a few dollars to make in China can retail for over $100 USD simply because some hoop shooting idiot likes them (then too he is paid well to like them).

Greed? We have seen inner city kids murdered up here over Nike tennis shoes and those stupid "Starter Jackets". Living in Cleveland is fun! We are currently in the middle of a large (really, really, really large as in huge) FBI county corruption investigation. All driven by "GREED". God help my poor little tax dollars.

OK, I dragged it off topic enough...

Ron

 

[cr0sh]

Now the Nike thing. I am sorry but fail to "get it". I look at a pair of Nike tennis shoes costing well in excess of $100 USD and wonder how a pair of tennis shoes costing a few dollars to make in China can retail for over $100 USD simply because some hoop shooting idiot likes them (then too he is paid well to like them).

They sell for $100 because people want to pay $100 for them. Those shoes represent the symbol of "I have $100".

There have been numerous studies done on how people won't buy a product that is priced one way, but as its price is increased, they'll buy it; in other words, for certain products, with certain "values" attached to them (status, prestige, etc), people won't pay less - they want to pay more. A person perceived as rich (whether he is or isn't, is really beside the point) is seen in relationship with the product, now people attach the values of "status and prestige" to that product, and expect - no, demand - that the product be priced accordingly, so that they to can "be like Mike" (or whatever the flavor-of-the-day is).

Greed drives the thing on both ends; the greed of the companies making the product, and the "greed" (the wanting of a symbol of status, for instance) of the consumers buying the product. However, they demand the price to be high because of their greed! So can you blame the companies for selling at that price? Of course, they did attach the symbol of wealth (or status, or power, etc) to the product with their marketing. But is it their fault the public is so damn uneducated as not to be able to see through this smokescreen? Then again, those companies don't do much to help educate the public; why should they when it would hurt their bottom line...? On and on, around it goes.

In a very short amount of time (well under a 100 years), the majority of the public has been so indoctrinated in this manner, and so few see through it, that this is the way the majority of the western world operates now. The older generation, through their actions, and sometimes even words, continues the cycle with the younger generation. The money keeps flowing.

It's damn near a better racket than religion (religion does go one better - control, power, and greed there is built on the backs of fear, uncertainty, and doubt around a collection of myths, legends, and lies).

 

[Reloadron]

They sell for $100 because people want to pay $100 for them. Those shoes represent the symbol of "I have $100".

There have been numerous studies done on how people won't buy a product that is priced one way, but as its price is increased, they'll buy it; in other words, for certain products, with certain "values" attached to them (status, prestige, etc), people won't pay less - they want to pay more. A person perceived as rich (whether he is or isn't, is really beside the point) is seen in relationship with the product, now people attach the values of "status and prestige" to that product, and expect - no, demand - that the product be priced accordingly, so that they to can "be like Mike" (or whatever the flavor-of-the-day is).

Well cr0sh, I can agree with some of that, matter of fact just about all of it with a minor exception:

In a very short amount of time (well under a 100 years), the majority of the public has been so indoctrinated in this manner, and so few see through it, that this is the way the majority of the western world operates now. The older generation, through their actions, and sometimes even words, continues the cycle with the younger generation. The money keeps flowing.

I would guess at 60 I could now be older generation, though I figure growing old to be mandatory but growing up an option. Growing up my parents never played the game when it came to kids clothing. It was the classic you will get what you get and like it. Then one day with kids of my own I woke up and said, Oh My God, I have become my father. I guess I just inherited that sense of values. How terrible that my kids had to suffer much as I did as a child. Forced to wear practical clothes and be taught the value of things and being practical.

How strange that now I see my kids waking up and saying Oh my God I have become my father as they shop for my grandchildren. Yes, here we are in August and the school season begins with back to school clothes. I don't see where a kid needs a $100 or now $200 pair of tennis shoes to sit in school and learn.

Peer pressure? They can suck it up and get over it.

My tennis shoes? I always buy two pairs at a time to rotate and I never spend over $29 per pair. They do just fine and wear as well as the overpriced garbage.

Do I indulge? Hell yes and love a good $15 cigar or good beer.

Ron

 

[cr0sh]

I would guess at 60 I could now be older generation, though I figure growing old to be mandatory but growing up an option.

Re-reading what I wrote, I think I mis-phrased what I was meaning. Let me see if I can clarify my thoughts a bit...

I was basically meaning to say that the real marketing push of attaching celebrity, status, power, and wealth to products began sometime after WW2 - mainly with "movie stars" and other well-known personalities being attached to the purchasing and use of products; this also coincided with the rise of television. Prior to that, while there was some similar attempts made with radio and other marketing means, there wasn't as an overt link between these "ideals of status" and products.

I would say things really started to pick up in the 1970s and then just snowballed in the 1980s and beyond. What I meant by "older generation" wasn't the overall age of the participants, but the relative ages. Parents today (of impressionable teenagers) are mainly my peers (those in their 30s); most of my peers I would say bought almost wholly into the whole "status in the product" message, and many lack the ability (or they don't want the ability - "ignorance is bliss" and all that) to see through the foggy veil that is modern marketing.

Most of it is easy to fix, though, by getting rid of the television...

Growing up my parents never played the game when it came to kids clothing. It was the classic you will get what you get and like it. Then one day with kids of my own I woke up and said, Oh My God, I have become my father. I guess I just inherited that sense of values. How terrible that my kids had to suffer much as I did as a child. Forced to wear practical clothes and be taught the value of things and being practical.

Your parents were likely children who remember and grew up during the Depression, and the hardship it caused; one could say after WW2 that the marketing of products coupled to "ideals of status" was an outgrowth after years of austerity, but there was resistance. Then as now, you and your generation had people like yourself who believed in the ideals of thrift and practicality, but the majority was leaning the other way (and being led - almost willingly - by marketing).

How strange that now I see my kids waking up and saying Oh my God I have become my father as they shop for my grandchildren. Yes, here we are in August and the school season begins with back to school clothes. I don't see where a kid needs a $100 or now $200 pair of tennis shoes to sit in school and learn.

Back in my day, I was more often than not "the kid with the k-mart clothes"; my parents instilled in me basically the same values of practicality - because they were of a generation that partially grew up during the tail-end of the Depression, plus WW2 and everything else (my dad served in both the Korean War and Vietnam). I am really an anomaly compared to a lot of my peers; I was adopted as a 4 year old by my parents, they were almost beyond the "cut off" age for the state to allow the adoption (they had me prior as a foster child). So my parents were much older than my peer's parents, and as a result I got a whole different set of values handed down to me.

Believe me, I am glad I did.

Peer pressure? They can suck it up and get over it.

Easy to say as an adult - for a kid (perhaps more for a teenager) its not as easy. Most kids seek to move up their social ladder, to be popular, etc. This is all accompanied by "peer pressure" to "conform"; it continues in a different manner into adulthood, as well (wear that suit, watch these shows, be this religion, have this car, etc). As a kid though, that pressure can take a brutality of violence, sometimes - bullying, physical fighting, etc can all be outcomes of the pressure.

I didn't have much of that as a kid though; I was never a popular person, I tended to hang out with other geeks, the "poor kids", and other "downtrodden" of my peers. Today, I still buck the "trends" (just about anybody on these type of forums likely does), even for my generation. I play around with electronics, I am a software developer, I am a bona-fide computer geek and proud of it. I wear tie-dye clothing with camos! I even like some of Lady GaGa's music (she is really this generation's Madonna - it's funny, I hear the same arguments from my generation that the parents of my generation were making about Madonna - tards!). I drive only paid-for vehicles, my house is "second-hand" (I hate HOAs), I have no unsecured debt. I work at a place that, if I showed up wearing the outfit I have in my profile pic, my boss would say "nice hat", ask me about my weekend, then we would meet to discuss the logic in some piece of code.

My tennis shoes? I always buy two pairs at a time to rotate and I never spend over $29 per pair. They do just fine and wear as well as the overpriced garbage.

I buy much of my clothing at Goodwill. Shoes, underwear, etc - are bought new, though; Goodwill goes only so far with me. My tie-dyes come from online (tie-dye is hard to find, especially quality hand-made tie-dye, it also isn't cheap). Some of my other t-shirts I wear come from online stores, too (lot of geeky shirts). I have found Goodwill, though, to be a great place for strange "one-off" shirts, as well as "Tommy Bahama"-style "island shirts", which I love to wear (linen or silk only - which is why they are probably at Goodwill, because dry-cleaning those aren't cheap).

Do I indulge? Hell yes and love a good $15 cigar or good beer.

Good for you, Ron. I have my own indulgences; I can't pass up a good deal on used robotics or old virtual-reality equipment (depending on manufacturer, age, and completeness - I am still looking for a complete VPL DataGlove system; probably will never find it). Other than that, I try not to skimp on food. You can skimp on a lot of things, but you shouldn't skimp on the quality of food you buy. I also tend to be "indulgent" when it comes to tools. I try to buy the best quality for the lowest price, but if the best can't be had for the lowest, but you know it to be best, then I go for that (the basic argument when I bought my wife her KitchenAid stand mixer; quality and timeless construction that will last a lifetime, well worth the premium price we paid for it).

 

[Reloadron]

@ cr0sh

Yeah, you pretty much called it. My parents were of the great depression. My father worked the CCC till WWII. Then he fought in the South Pacific as a US Marine. Yes, I am a Vietnam veteran (been there and done that).

If nothing else in life I did learn values and tried to impart them on my own kids. Hey, so far so good. I believe you reap what you sow and it works for me.

We now return you to the regular forum.

Ron

 

[amando96]

Americans get paid too little for most of the jobs. Being paid less than $15.00 per hour is below the poverty line. The cost of living the US is exactly the same as in Australia and the minimum wage in Australia is $15.00 per hour.
I don't even know how someone can live on $15.00 per hour.

Really? here it's 2.5€/hr

China will never stop producing, all of us are dependant on their stuff, it's cheap, and that's about it, for some things I'd rather pay a bit more and have reliability, but cheap stuff is always a win, even if it breaks, then I get cheap parts...

 

[tvtech]

Really? here it's 2.5€/hr

China will never stop producing, all of us are dependant on their stuff, it's cheap, and that's about it, for some things I'd rather pay a bit more and have reliability, but cheap stuff is always a win, even if it breaks, then I get cheap parts...

Surprisingly enough, most small electronics goodies we own today are "Made in China".

People who once owned distinguished products such as IBM are often shocked now that their new products might well be designed in the USA but are actually built in China. By a factory that uses the Lenovo brand.

I could cry about stuff like this. I will never will forget my HP 11C calculator that I used in my student years in the early eighties. Gold Plated circuitry was evident everywhere when I opened it. Beautifully put together and made to last a lifetime.

The worst part of everything is in this day and age is that if you want something electronic that will last ...it will still be made in a Chinese factory. Different factories have different quality control procedures. And depending on who is running the show.....it's a toss up.

What happened to the old "Let's do our best. Lets design and build a product that oozes quality and performance".

The whole Electronics industry has become a mess. Cheap and nasty and a throw away society.

You will only feel and think like I do if you are repairing Shite all day long that has one origination. China. Some design's are good. Assembly as cheap as possible. Always.

Aluminium heatsinks hopelessly too small to handle proper cooling for extended periods of time.

Built in obsolescence.

Cheers

 

[colin55]

My first TE calculator was $130 (when I earned $100 per week). The same calculator is now $3.00 to $10.00
My first circular saw was $250, then $120 then $99 and now they are $30 from Aldi.
My first Digital calipers were $150 then $80 and now $20.00 from Aldi. Aldi sells out within 2 hours!!
All these cost-reductions have been due to China.
None of the Chinese things have worn out.
They have all been damaged by the STAFF.
Where do you think Nike shoes have always been made? HK and China - for about $3.00 to $5.00
My latest TV is 9 years old and NEVER been turned off. It has never faulted. I keep the sound on when I am not home. No robber is going to rob a house with loud noise as he cannot hear if someone is in an adjacent room.
I have never been robbed and yet others around me have been robbed.
I did TV service for 25 years and relied on 2 calls per year for colour TV's. When Taiwan came on the scene the fail-rate fell appreciably and I could see the end to servicing.
TV's are now thrown out on the front lawn after the first time they fail to turn on.
China has improved our standard of living enormously.

 

[tvtech]

We repair everything here. From remotes to broken TV's. Hey it's money.

Blecks have loads of money now. And the TV game is going stronger than ever right now. If you can put up with the crap it still is a good business.

The Chinese, however, have not made my life better by building crap.

Sorry

 

[tvtech]

My first TE calculator was $130 (when I earned $100 per week). The same calculator is now $3.00 to $10.00
My first circular saw was $250, then $120 then $99 and now they are $30 from Aldi.
My first Digital calipers were $150 then $80 and now $20.00 from Aldi. Aldi sells out within 2 hours!!
All these cost-reductions have been due to China.
None of the Chinese things have worn out.
They have all been damaged by the STAFF.
Where do you think Nike shoes have always been made? HK and China - for about $3.00 to $5.00
My latest TV is 9 years old and NEVER been turned off. It has never faulted. I keep the sound on when I am not home. No robber is going to rob a house with loud noise as he cannot hear if someone is in an adjacent room.
I have never been robbed and yet others around me have been robbed.
I did TV service for 25 years and relied on 2 calls per year for colour TV's. When Taiwan came on the scene the fail-rate fell appreciably and I could see the end to servicing.
TV's are now thrown out on the front lawn after the first time they fail to turn on.
China has improved our standard of living enormously.

Ya ya...a Chinese BMW. China will copy one...do you want to drive it though...

Cheers

 

[Vizier87]

The whole Electronics industry has become a mess. Cheap and nasty and a throw away society.

You will only feel and think like I do if you are repairing Shite all day long that has one origination. China. Some design's are good. Assembly as cheap as possible. Always.

Aluminium heatsinks hopelessly too small to handle proper cooling for extended periods of time.

Built in obsolescence.

Cheers

Touche. Nowadays complexity in electronics devices don't match with the level of respect from the mass. Therefore an electronics hobbyist, however smart and innovative he is, will be seen as a person with a level of expertise which is perceived to be picked from the streets like taking up pottery or something (no disrespect meant there).

In my ring of friends, it seemed that no one appreciated pendrives except me.

 

[colin55]

Let me tell you one thing.
Original transistors from the US, Australia, Europe, UK, all failed in TV's. It was not until the Japanese came along with their transistors that TV's became totally reliable.
All the first TV's and computers had a fail rate of twice a year.
Exactly the same with cars.
I have done 320,000km in my Tarago and not had a thing replaced.
My previous Australian cars had many things replaced.
It was the Japanese that perfected the transistor and the car.
You can get two different quality items from Chine. Those that are inspected and those that are inferior. It is the buyer-from-the company's fault that you get the "seconds," because they are cheaper.
We can now buy a kettle, toaster, steam iron, coffee maker for $8 - $12.00, a vacuum cleaner for $40 and a bike for $100.00
If you go to Aldi, there are guaranteed. If you go to the market, they are not guaranteed.
China can produce the quality you want at a price. It is the buyer-from-the company that makes the poor decision.
Things would never have been improved if it were not for the Chinese input.
When I went to the US it was like going back 20 years in time.
All the failed devices were everywhere.
Cars with water-based duco, taps that didn't turn off, no guttering or spouting, unmade roads just outside a township and water that smelt like swimming-pool water.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Let me tell you one thing.
Original transistors from the US, Australia, Europe, UK, all failed in TV's. It was not until the Japanese came along with their transistors that TV's became totally reliable.
All the first TV's and computers had a fail rate of twice a year.

Complete and utter rubbish!.

I've been repairing TV sets since shortly after colour came out here, and on the the very first all transistor colour sets.

They certainly didn't fail 'twice a year', and Japanese sets failed as well as all others.

The better quality Japanese sets may have been slightly more reliable, but that didn't last long - Hitachi for example made their name on a few early models, and have been pretty crap since. Japanese sets were also incredibly badly designed, you wouldn't believe how poor they were - assembly costs must have been massive, due to the bad designs, and it made servicing much more difficult and time consuming.

Even up to the eighties Japanese design was still pathetic, I've shown a number of Japanese 'big wigs' over from Japan the difference between well designed UK sets (specifcally Tatung - who used to be Decca) and their own poorly designed sets. You could just look at the boards and instantly see which one most cost a LOT more to manufacture, simply due to the poor design and labout intensive assembly.

 

[colin55]

You are mixing up two different facts.
I said Japan perfected the transistor. I did not say anything about Japanese TV sets. They were a total nightmare.
It is Taiwan, Korea and China that perfected the art of making a good TV chassis.
The figures I gave above are not only mine but also the biggest renter of TV's in Australia - Radio Rentals.
They originally used the useless 3500 AWA chassis (from the UK) and had 8 technicians on the road.
They changed to the 4KA chassis (Taiwan) and sacked 7 of the technicians.
The head technician said the only faults they had were fuses and picture tubes.
Their fail rate went from more than 2 calls per year to less than one per lifetime.
I also rented 250 x 17 inch colour TVs from Taiwan (General). I had less than 10 calls on the total of 250 sets in 8 years. After 8 years the sets belonged to the customer.
I rented and sold hundreds of TV's: Luxor, Blaupunkt, Seimens, AWA, Philips.
I fixed these on the basis of about 2 calls per year. They made me a fortune. How do you think I bought my 5 properties?

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

You are mixing up two different facts.
I said Japan perfected the transistor. I did not say anything about Japanese TV sets. They were a total nightmare.

I don't see how Japan can claim to have perfected the transistor?, the European ones were (and are) just as good as the Japanese ones.

It is Taiwan, Korea and China that perfected the art of making a good TV chassis.
The figures I gave above are not only mine but also the biggest renter of TV's in Australia - Radio Rentals.
They originally used the useless 3500 AWA chassis (from the UK) and had 8 technicians on the road.
They changed to the 4KA chassis (Taiwan) and sacked 7 of the technicians.
The head technician said the only faults they had were fuses and picture tubes.
Their fail rate went from more than 2 calls per year to less than one per lifetime.
I also rented 250 x 17 inch colour TVs from Taiwan (General). I had less than 10 calls on the total of 250 sets in 8 years. After 8 years the sets belonged to the customer.
I rented and sold hundreds of TV's: Luxor, Blaupunkt, Seimens, AWA, Philips.
I fixed these on the basis of about 2 calls per year. They made me a fortune. How do you think I bought my 5 properties?

Who are AWA?, and by 3500 do you mean the 1970's 3500 chassis?, good sets for their day - and I wasn't aware that Taiwan or Korea even made TV's back then, there were certainly none in the UK from other than Japan.

As far as rental goes, you want a few failures - it keeps the customer renting. Ideally you want spectacular faulrs that are cheap to repair, so clouds of smoke and costing pennies to mend is good Dry joints on ON/OFF switches was a good one (in more recent years), because it arcs and sparks, makes smoke and a smell, and often just needs resoldering.

 

[tvtech]

The old TFK 711 chassis was a beaut to work on when doing service calls:

Chassis slid out on metal rails...and you could then turn it up @ around 45 degrees to check out the complete chassis for dry joints on the PCB side (obviously).

Even the old Philips K9 was a beaut to work on..had the two "doors" that you could open once you had the back cover off...
Left was the line stage and LOPTX @ the bottom....Right was the signals, Chroma etc...and all the swappable cans for quick and easy fault finding at a customers house.

The old K9 only really had two problems that I picked up often in the field..the Audio I.F can (I.C.) would fail giving no sound.
And sometimes the PSU control would fail blowing the BU326 Chopper Transistor....

They were amazing sets though. My Sister and Brother in Law owned one for around the best part of 25 Years....never ever a problem.....on a farm with a Generator and no Grid in sight. I was the first person to open the set since new. And guess what?? The old 410 Delta tube had seen it's butt...

Otherwise, Loptx, Sound and all else were still O.K.

Something Chinese lasting beyond 5 Years is inconceivable. Even if it only costs a fraction of the cost of something decent.

I have both English and German blood in me. As everybody knows English and German people either do things properly or leave alone. We are not prepared to take half measures. Or build ****.

Till another day.

Cheers