EMC requirments for Automotives

[Tim_B]

Hi Chaps

Anybody got any pointers on what is required for EMC testing an Automotive part that will be permanently attached to the battery supply?

I'm thinking specs or any anything you have heard.

Many thanks

Tim

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

If you had your location filled in it might help?, it's likely to be location specific, you might also mention your application, which will also have a bearing on it - but a car is a VERY noisy location.

 

[Tim_B]

OK updated my status now

It's for the UK then on around the world.

I know that if you plug the device in through the lighter socket its not so bad, but once you give the option to wire it in full time like an alarm it get pretty hairy.

It will obviously have to go through a test house but I'm struggling at the moment to find any info I need for the basic stuff.

The reg at the moment is going to be rated to handle transients for
t < 100 ms and duty cycle 1% VTRANS Up to +45V, with reverse voltage protection to -42V.

Now I'm sure just picking the right reg is not the only thing I have to worry about, its just I find out what else.

Btw thanks for looking so far

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

OK updated my status now

It's for the UK then on around the world.

I know that if you plug the device in through the lighter socket its not so bad, but once you give the option to wire it in full time like an alarm it get pretty hairy.

It will obviously have to go through a test house but I'm struggling at the moment to find any info I need for the basic stuff.

Will it?, and do you have a very large bank balance if it has to?.

The reg at the moment is going to be rated to handle transients for
t < 100 ms and duty cycle 1% VTRANS Up to +45V, with reverse voltage protection to -42V.

Now I'm sure just picking the right reg is not the only thing I have to worry about, its just I find out what else.

Btw thanks for looking so far

So all you're looking for is a clean power supply in a car?, there are various manufacturers datasheets that give suggested circuits - basically inductors, capacitors, zeners, then a regulator IC.

You could also just look inside an existing commercial in-car unit, and see what they do - I think you might be surprised how little you might need!.

 

[Tim_B]

Will it?, and do you have a very large bank balance if it has to?.

I will in the end have to shell out some serious money but for now I'm trying to do the basics so I only have to visit the test house as few times as possible.

I was thinking about opening an alarm or some such a device

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

I will in the end have to shell out some serious money but for now I'm trying to do the basics so I only have to visit the test house as few times as possible.

Why do you need to have it tested?, I assure you that VERY little commercial electronics is!, and most has no requirement to be tested.

I was thinking about opening an alarm or some such a device

Sorry, I don't understand that?.

 

[Tim_B]

Why do you need to have it tested?, I assure you that VERY little commercial electronics is!, and most has no requirement to be tested.

If you sell a device with out CE marking it (that needs to be CE marked) you could be prosecuted. If you CE mark it you have to be able to back up your assertion with facts. The big companies do it in house and they through know through experience what is needed. Even if it's a paper trail.

Knowing what you have to comply to then your 80% there. I'm at that stage now, trying to find out what I have to comply to.

It's not the user how instigates prosecutions, it's the rival companys.

I know people who were taken to court, its not a laughing matter.

Never give advice to saying do not bother.

I would recommend you read this post

https://www.picbasic.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=3490

Sorry, I don't understand that?.

I agree with you ref

You could also just look inside an existing commercial in-car unit, and see what they do - I think you might be surprised how little you might need!.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

If you sell a device with out CE marking it (that needs to be CE marked) you could be prosecuted. If you CE mark it you have to be able to back up your assertion with facts. The big companies do it in house and they through know through experience what is needed. Even if it's a paper trail.

CE is completely self certified, no external (or internal for that matter) testing is actually required!.

I'm even doubtful that there are any specific CE certification tests?, there certainly weren't in the early days!.

Knowing what you have to comply to then your 80% there. I'm at that stage now, trying to find out what I have to comply to.

It's not the user how instigates prosecutions, it's the rival companys.

I know people who were taken to court, its not a laughing matter.

Never give advice to saying do not bother.

I'll tell you how most CE 'certification' is handled, you ask the Chinese manufacturer how much it will cost for CE labelling, and they quote you the cost of the labels - no testing of any kind is done, the Chinese merely stick the labels on!.

CE certification IS a laughing matter, it's sad but it's true!.

However, throughout this thread you've never mentioned what the device might be?, and that has a HUGE effect on any potential CE certification.

As a further indication of CE's 'effectiveness', have you ever noticed how many non-electrical goods possess CE stickers, even plastic toys and pencils!.

 

[Optikon]

CE is completely self certified, no external (or internal for that matter) testing is actually required!.

I'm even doubtful that there are any specific CE certification tests?, there certainly weren't in the early days!.



I'll tell you how most CE 'certification' is handled, you ask the Chinese manufacturer how much it will cost for CE labelling, and they quote you the cost of the labels - no testing of any kind is done, the Chinese merely stick the labels on!.

CE certification IS a laughing matter, it's sad but it's true!.

However, throughout this thread you've never mentioned what the device might be?, and that has a HUGE effect on any potential CE certification.

As a further indication of CE's 'effectiveness', have you ever noticed how many non-electrical goods possess CE stickers, even plastic toys and pencils!.

In order for my company to sell over there, we do CE test all of our products. We don't pay for a fake chinese label and there ARE specific tests for certification. Despite what it was early on, CE is a very real & structured thing here in the US for anyone serious about selling in Europe.

I thought CE covered non electronic items (in a similar way that UL & cUL do..) why does that hinder it's "effectiveness?"

Also, why is this in electronic theory section?

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

In order for my company to sell over there, we do CE test all of our products. We don't pay for a fake chinese label and there ARE specific tests for certification. Despite what it was early on, CE is a very real & structured thing here in the US for anyone serious about selling in Europe.

I thought CE covered non electronic items (in a similar way that UL & cUL do..) why does that hinder it's "effectiveness?"

CE certification was for electrical interference levels, both by and from the unit - perhaps they have extended it's scope now? - but I don't expect much interference from a pencil?.

Also, why is this in electronic theory section?

I wondered myself? - perhaps I should move it? - done!.

BTW Optikon, would you have a weblink for the OP about testing specs for CE?. What sort of testing do you do for it?.

 

[Tim_B]

Also, why is this in electronic theory section?

I was looking for a secion and saw this

Basic principles, ideas, concepts, laws, and formulas behind electronics.

Just the wrong kind of law I guess

I got this from another site

Like all "bury your head in the sand" solutions, it works to a point.

That point being when its challenged.

Remember the TS officer might not know his stuff, but if the complaining party is even partally informed and points the TS guy in the right direction. YOU WILL NEED TO JUSTIFY YOUR POSITION.

That justification will be presented to the TS guys advisor who will give an informed OPINION ( as an expert, they can give an OPINION)

If the TS guy or gal sniffs a successful prosecution and he / she thinks you've avoided the correct protocol, or maybe life could be put in danger by your avoidance or negligence........your in trouble

It depends on how hard the complaining party push, if they are pushing hard and there is a sniff of error on your part....you have a problem. maybe big, maybe small, but its a problem and a mark against you.

1st time maybe you get a warning, second time, maybe you're not so lucky.


A lot of experienced people have passed comment on CE Marking.

My advise is don't listen to unqualified "experts", read the legislation, look at the penalties and do it right. If you show good due diligence.... its a good basis for your mitigation if prosecuted. This or the other forum is NOT good due diligence, especially since i've now posted pretty much the same comments on both forum.

 

[CheapSlider]

european commision

Presumably you've already looked at **broken link removed**?

 

[Tim_B]

Sorry for the delay in replying

No I had not seen that, good link! Thanks.

 

[denikar]

ISO specification ISO7637-2 is a good baseline reference for automotive coupled transients. Most of the major OEM test specifications are variants of this or use it directly.

 

[Chaerl]

Hi, I am current working in the automotive field. What you want to do is a very broad one. EMC has many parts. The parameters to pass a certain test is normally depends on the the customer (say Ford, JLR). What are you really interested of? I may help you on this.

 

[picbits]

Wow - I'd totally forgotten about this thread

 

[Chaerl]

After I post my message, I realized that this thread was old. I was just searching for automotive subjects.