AVR vrs PIC (I don't care)

[be80be]

Arduino is not a chip. You can buy an Arduino with AVR, PIC or ARM on it.

Yes it's like I said some one had to paddle. Chip don't matter it's the tool set that hangs me. If it fits use it I kind of wish I started using C first.

 

[atferrari]

What is your definition for both PIC 18F & ATmega with following definition

Structural Hazards
Data Hazards
Control Hazards

What are your definitions of:

Structural Hazards
Data Hazards
Control Hazards?

 

[large_ghostman]

When you try and make someone look silly, by asking questions relating to data hazards etc etc, What you really mean is. I am going to make your opinion seems worthless, by trying to to show you dont know what your talking about.
When you went wrong, was to ask the question without any context.
So have another shot at it. Give it some kind of context or situation. Without that it just looks like big words said to make others seem stupid.
For example, had you said what is your opinion on the there differences regarding data hazards, in say a can bus anti roll suspension system. Then I would have pointed out that, while they may or may not do a quick dev test in a lab using arduino, they sure as hell are not going to build cars out of arduino shields!
For most here that use these things for fun, the differences make no difference.
Let me ask you a question. Name one safety cricticle system, in any make of car that uses a pic or arduino?

 

[NorthGuy]

After reading these posts I looked at the Arduino IDE briefly (never done that before) and it looks kind of cute to me. It does create a layer of hardware abstraction. It is really easy to start blinking LEDs or outputting "Hello World" on LCDs (don't have Arduino to actualy try, but easy to do the software). However, when you're programming multitasking controller it may not be the best thing.

It reminds me of Visual Basic, which lets you create some simple programs really quick, but won't let you do anything complex. But hey, people wrote commercial programs on VB.

I would agree that software development for MCUs will undergo certain Arduinization in the near future and we may even see "managed" solutions alike C#. As it will allow hundreds of people to start doing MCUs, the needs of sparse programmers doing it the "old" way will get depressed. To cover all the inefficiencies, the more and more complex and powerful MCUs will be developed and become standard. Software will get buggier and buggier. At the end, MCUs will get extinct because new devices will be capable of running Linux, which will be a real break-through on the programming simplification route.

The "advanced instructions" in PICs don't add much and don't really improve anything (I may be sllightly wrong here, I judge by PIC24E comapred yo PIC24F). I think it's more of a marketing stuff - new PICs designed for C - why would anyone buy other processors which are not designed for C?

 

[micropad]

All of those things depend on the skills of the user. When used correctly all microcontrollers are extremely reliable. They do have bugs etc, but usually nothing serious.

But, Since AVR ISA operating speed same as OSC frequency, so we have extra care should be taken than PIC I think?

As well as we have to care about the architecture both of MCU"used

Accumulate base architecture
Register to register Architecture ( load Store )
Register memory architecture
Stack over architecture

 

[micropad]

What are your definitions of:

Structural Hazards
Data Hazards
Control Hazards?

It is simple with Google search but how do you thing point of AVR and PIC?

 

[Mickster]

Name one safety cricticle system, in any make of car that uses a pic or arduino?

I have seen a PIC in an GM SRS (Supplemental Restraint System) ECU.
IIRC, it was a 16F77 utilising AN0 thru AN7, to monitor the squib circuits.
I can't remember the ECU manufacturer right now, but if it comes to me, I will post it.

 

[large_ghostman]

After reading these posts I looked at the Arduino IDE briefly (never done that before) and it looks kind of cute to me. It does create a layer of hardware abstraction. It is really easy to start blinking LEDs or outputting "Hello World" on LCDs (don't have Arduino to actualy try, but easy to do the software). However, when you're programming multitasking controller it may not be the best thing.

It reminds me of Visual Basic, which lets you create some simple programs really quick, but won't let you do anything complex. But hey, people wrote commercial programs on VB.

I would agree that software development for MCUs will undergo certain Arduinization in the near future and we may even see "managed" solutions alike C#. As it will allow hundreds of people to start doing MCUs, the needs of sparse programmers doing it the "old" way will get depressed. To cover all the inefficiencies, the more and more complex and powerful MCUs will be developed and become standard. Software will get buggier and buggier. At the end, MCUs will get extinct because new devices will be capable of running Linux, which will be a real break-through on the programming simplification route.

The "advanced instructions" in PICs don't add much and don't really improve anything (I may be sllightly wrong here, I judge by PIC24E comapred yo PIC24F). I think it's more of a marketing stuff - new PICs designed for C - why would anyone buy other processors which are not designed for C?

I agree with alot of this, and untill a week or 2 ago I had only ever used pics, and even then only 8 bit or 16 bit. I then had the chance to use silicon labs boards, one in particular is the 3550DK. I am still lost for words with what I could make that board do, very very easily, but not in a arduino like way, the different IDE's for that board all give you the option of going as deep as you like, nothing cant be easily tweaked the way you want it. But what I liked most of all was I could plug it into the IDE and start working, I am still trying to get a led to blink with mplab X! It keeps crashing or asking me to switch tools to use this or that. From a tool point of view microchip are going backward, there stuff is getting more and more buggy, and harder and harder to use.
The other thing that bothers me, is the constant reference in the data sheets about being optimized for C, and yet 99% of all code snipets in the datasheets are are ASM? like when it talks about clock switching, it gives you an example of ho to do it, but its in ASM???? I just dont understand why the chip is made to be super C friendly, yet to get it to do most things a little more complex, they show you in ASM?
Maybe microchip are now mainly targeting the hobby market and given upon serious use, like say the car or medical field. How can you design a life criticle part with a product that has a barely functioning set of tools?? Killing off mplab and c18 before they had mplabx workable was stupid.
Take a look at the silicon labs dev board I mentioned. Its no toy, its designed for serious use, and yet its easy to use. 4 years I have used pics and yet cant get a simple project running with there tool chain?? I am so unhappy with the way I see them moving All my pic stuff, including devo boards ICD3's and chips are now on ebay. I am the next generation and I was a big big fan of there's, not any more.

 

[large_ghostman]

I have seen a PIC in an GM SRS (Supplemental Restraint System) ECU.
IIRC, it was a 16F77 utilising AN0 thru AN7, to monitor the squib circuits.
I can't remember the ECU manufacturer right now, but if it comes to me, I will post it.

I was thinking more of things like ABS systems and skid control, that kind of thing, not a seat belt monitor or air bag controller. Or maybe a system for engine management. The kind of systems I am thinking of keep the car on the road, if they go wrong you crash.I kind of now think of pics as toaster chips, and that kind of thing, maybe washing machine controller, I dont see them as something I would want to use if my life depended on it.

 

[Mickster]

Have a look at this PDF LG, they are out there in systems that you describe, but we rarely see them.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...h4HwDA&usg=AFQjCNGTmFCrauEo5Xi7V7SHF2XFsoK2XA

 

[large_ghostman]

Have a look at this PDF LG, they are out there in systems that you describe, but we rarely see them.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=14&cad=rja&ved=0CFgQFjAN&url=https://www.anglia.com/microchip/literature/autobrochure.pdf&ei=S4DuUvy_H5WzsAS2h4HwDA&usg=AFQjCNGTmFCrauEo5Xi7V7SHF2XFsoK2XA

Very very clever marketing there, But I think this bit in the brochure is the bit that matters. "
he fl exibility gained from using the PIC microcon
troller
played a pivotal role in enabling the successful manufacture of over 40 million systems that have been delivered to provide opt
imal
protection for vehicle occupants."

According to that it played a role, it was maybe used to develop, if it was actualy being used in those systems then surely, it would be screaming in the brochure, 40 MILLION PICS ARE IN THIS SYSTEM OR THAT SYSTEM.
Instead in just implies that somewhere down the line a pic was involved. PIC30F for a long time bragged it would do 10 bit at 1,000,000 smps. But it turns out that in the end they couldnt make it work, so they left the 1000000 sample thing in the datasheet revision, but corrected it 750,000 smps in the errata, I dont know the chip number I will find out but, energy micro have a chip for less money than the 30f part, does more stuff on the chip and does 12 bit ADC continious or burst mode at 1,000,000 smps.
I honestly think microchip are starting to slip and be left behind. Another example, they brought out there xlp range, and still boast its the most energy frugal micro on the market. But it isnt any longer, most of energy micro's range use far less while not even in sleep ,mode.
I could be wrong I am only a kid, but to me the pic is the old has been, is there better out there, with better tools and support and for less money. Dad has a mechanic friend I will ask him to try and find out what manufacturer are mainly used in these kinds of systems.
But yeah that brochure did at first make me go wow! But the wording is a bit clever in places

 

[Mickster]

The bits that stand out for me, in the PDF, are these:

This highly experienced team services more than 200 different automotive customers worldwide with pre- and post-production support...

Today Microchip serves more than 40,000 customers worldwide and thousands of diverse applications.

More than 250 million devices using Microchip’s KEELOQ®technology are in vehicles around the world.

A PIC microcontroller is the “microcontroller of choice” for one of the leading airbag crash sensor modules in the marketplace. Our sales and application engineering team worked with the system designers to take the reprogrammable memory technology of a standard product and integrated it into a creative solution to address complex needs. The flexibility gained from using the PIC microcontroller played a pivotal role in enabling the successful manufacture of over 40 million systems that have been delivered to provide optimal protection for vehicle occupants. (If you read that whole paragraph again, a PIC IS used in over 40 million systems.)

Microchip offers more than 380 analog and interface devices to complete leading automotive designs.

Recent manufacturing milestones (as of 2004) include:
• Delivered the 3 billionth PIC microcontroller, reflecting the popularity of our PIC microcontrollers and ensuring strong manufacturing throughput is available to support growing customer demand.
• Shipped the 300,000th development system. Microchip has one of the largest bases of installed development tools in the industry, indicating broad engineering support for our silicon products. These tools significantly reduce development time and enable faster time to market. A vast amount of technical material and resources is also available to support this large infrastructure.
• Delivered more than 40 million devices for automotive crash sensor controllers in safety-critical applications worldwide, demonstrating proven and reliable manufacturing processes.

That was in 2004. I wonder how high the current figures are, over 9 years later.

BTW, I've also seen a few Atmel products along the way in automotive applications too.

I simply wanted to point out that you probably weren't aware of PICs or Microchip stuff being in automotive products, because you likely haven't done any teardowns on the stuff.
I have done quite a lot of teardowns.

 

[large_ghostman]

All very impressive, but what is used in the most important parts? the keyloq thing is car radio's! hardly a safety criticle device. There is a program online for unlocking ANY car radio, and it mentions the pic thing.
Like I said I used to really love pics, but there is better cheaper out there, microchip is becoming microsoft. They had a pretty good compiler C18, they brought a very good compiler Hi Tech, which had a brilliant easy to use IDE (Hi Tide), instead of killing off mplab and developing Hi tide, they mashed them together, I still cant get my ICD3 to work on any mplabX ver on any the computers here. It tells me to use the switcher, which I did but still no luck.
Take a look at any of the IDE's aimed at silicon labs, all do way more than mplabx, the one I use has only been out 6 months, and works perfect. It took less than an hour to start making programs with there 3 bit chips, yet with pics I have had to switch to mplabX and it dosnt work correctly, its buggy as hell.
To me that is a bad sign about the company.
Rarely on here is anything other than pic or atmel discussed, but the reality is there is better chips for the same or less money with better tools. But people seem to stick with what the know or learnt with.
as for the whole I wonder h0w many they sell now thing, I would bet they are selling less to the car market than they did.

 

[Mickster]

All very impressive, but what is used in the most important parts? the keyloq thing is car radio's! hardly a safety criticle device. There is a program online for unlocking ANY car radio, and it mentions the pic thing.

Nope, KEELOQ is used in vehicle security - remote key fobs and receivers to be more precise.

Sure, there are other uC's and dev packages out there, but for the most part, people tend to go for the ones with the most examples/tutorials available.
Nobody is going to knock you for looking around for other systems to use, but this sudden 'PICs suck now' type approach seems a little strange, considering how well you have done with them thus far.
It was only yesterday, that I downloaded MPLAB X, so I haven't experienced your problems with ICD3 yet. I'll have to have a play around with the combination and see how it goes, but I have had other things to do and electronics has only had a very limited amount of time lately.

 

[Mickster]

Oh, BTW, the most important parts, such as engine management, tend to use Bosch, Motorola, Siemens etc. to name a few.

 

[be80be]

I still want to no what's arduino have to do with pic vrs avr I have a pic 18f2550 it uses the arduino IDE a arm a avr and something else can't remember the name but they all use a arduino IDE fun to play with.
It's the tools that makes anything fun to do. Then you pick a chip for the job but that box that does the brains in a car in a Cadillac 2008 is a arm I took one apart.

 

[bryan1]

I only saw this thread today and have read thru the lot and my reply below may open a can of worms.......

I have played with 8 bit pic's for a few years now, starting off with Nigels tutorials then onto Oshonsoft Basic. Then a guy in WA (Oz) cameup with the maximite which runs on a pic32. when I was in school the computer we used was a TRS-80 and this maximite was a blast from the past.

Ok so all the hard 'C' programming is already done but in return is a stand alone system that only needs a VGA monitor and PS2 keyboard to get running. Users do have to make circuits to interface so some knowledge is required. Now coming out soon is a 28 pin version that runs a new version of the basic so for many people that don't want to be an EE just to make a uC do what they want can with this platform.

I have tried to introduce this to this forum but OK it hasn't taken off but for many people who always wanted to do some smarts but stayed away due to the fact they needed to learn a whole new language and the idea of using basic which many have in years gone past, has appealed to them.

 

[large_ghostman]

It is all a bit irrelevant,people tend to use what was recommended when they first learnt, and stick with that, microchip being smart know this, they will give schools and kids the world, when they start out, because they know they will likely have them as customers for life.
I subscribed to this myself, I thought the world started and ended with pics, My only gripe is these threads are always the same, its always the same two families that are mentioned, but in the real world some of the other guy's are leaving them both well behind! and I mean that in terms of on chip capability, tool chain capability, ease of use and cost. The more I use these ARM based chips the more I know I will use pics less and less.
most my pic stuff is now sold (last night), I have kept the ICD3 and a couple of chips, mainly because I still have projects planned with them. I dont want to switch those over to ARM. The 8051 boards I am playing with are pretty good too, I really hate to admit it but the Keil compiler for 8051. with Silicon labs or the attol IDE is ace. IAR IDE is a bit naff tho.
The jatag programer and debugger is really nice as is the 8051 one. No pickit3 or icd3 telling you hang on i have to download another file if you want to use that chip. So my last input into this thread.
I dont see pics or AVR as the future, there is better with better tools, as people my age discover these things and use them, then when I am your age pics will be a thing of the past, to a kid like me your arguing over which is better, valves/tubes or transistors, while others are looking at the new fangled thing called a microchip has just come out.
But what the hell do I know

 

[DerStrom8]

I still want to no what's arduino have to do with pic vrs avr

The Arudino uses an AVR as the main microcontroller, most commonly the ATmega8, ATmega168, ATmega328, ATmega1280, and the ATmega2560 (list from wikipedia).

 

[large_ghostman]

Nope, KEELOQ is used in vehicle security - remote key fobs and receivers to be more precise.

Sure, there are other uC's and dev packages out there, but for the most part, people tend to go for the ones with the most examples/tutorials available.
Nobody is going to knock you for looking around for other systems to use, but this sudden 'PICs suck now' type approach seems a little strange, considering how well you have done with them thus far.
It was only yesterday, that I downloaded MPLAB X, so I haven't experienced your problems with ICD3 yet. I'll have to have a play around with the combination and see how it goes, but I have had other things to do and electronics has only had a very limited amount of time lately.

Its not pics suck. What has put me off is what I see as a change in policy, They have taken away tool chains that worked and compilers that worked, and are forcing people to go the route they want them to go. And just like microsoft the end user is now the dev debug team, MPLAB X will be a slightly crappier version of say ATTOL , but better than MPLAB, but still far too buggy to be the only tool chain they now support.
Hi Tech C was good, its IDE was brilliant for newbies, very much like Mikroelectronica, where you have a graphical interface for setting stuff like analogue inputs etc, or you could use it like mplab. It was stable, Microchip brought them and withing weeks killed it off. I lost my copy when dads hard drive packed up, and cant get another copy of it.
I simply dont get why they took good tools like that, and C18 and mashed them into something awful. They took away mplab because no one was really taking up mplab x, so they took the choice away.
Reading there forum, its full off stuff from the community but little support from microchip, I bricked my pk3 because 64 bit win7 usb drivers wipe the boot sector. Why does the ICD3 and pk3 need to contact there server every time you change chip type? why cant it store the files on your machine?
works ok with win8 and xp, but 64bit win7 and pk3 is a gamble every time you change from 18f to 30f. Thats how I got the ICD3 from them, they admitted it was killing pk3's left right and centre.
They seem to of changed as a company, it just feels like the customer is no longer priority. Hi tech C had good documentation, the smart thing would have been to keep that tool chain and develop hitide, Mixing the two is a mistake.
I cant see the logic in giving chips extra instruction sets to do clever stuff, then having a tool chain that means you now have to disable them from the IDE or the compiler and IDE wont work???
So what do the people that needed or used those extra bits in there products do now? they cant use a non supported hard to get hold of tool chain and compiler to use them. They are left high and dry. There is no mention that I can find if the situation is temporary or permanent.
So when new chips come out, will they have the extended command set? if they do then why? because they cant be used with the manufactures tool chain. To me thats wrong, and slightly mad.
The other thing I dislike most, is hiding lies and facts. The 30f4013 said in the first datasheet, and the family datasheet (because now for those parts you need to read both sets of datasheet!!), that the chip would do 1 million samples a second at 10 bit, but it dosnt, they gave the information before it was tested, When the revised datasheet came out AFTER they knew that the top rate was actually 750,000 samples a second, they didnt change it, they kept the 1 million in the datasheet, but put the real figure in the errata, to me thats dishonest, and I dont think it was something they would have done a while back, I think this behavior is new.
At 13 my rants and oppinions count for nothing on th face of it, what you pros think is what matters, what you use and design is what matters, FOR NOW.
But whats going to happen in 20-30 years time, when I still remember all this and instead have decided to go another route?
Then my opinion will matter, I will be someone else customer, you guys will be retired. Short term what you think matters, but there future lays with what I and my generation think about how they do stuff.
The board I mentioned before 3350DK from silicon labs is around £250 I think. dad phoned them today, and said I had kind of taken it over, so could he order another one, they offered to send him another free one, and told him to let me play with it all I like, they have emailed me some cool games, some the guys in there tech department made for a laugh on the board.
They also sent me a key code for the full arm MDK compiler. So yes microchip are riding high now, but others are playing the long game.
I dont hate pics, I just hate the way the company seem to be heading. If anything I think its really sad, That a few simple things that should never happen have put me off.
Oh and read the passage again, it clearly states.


The flexibility gained from using the PIC microcontroller played a pivotal role in enabling the successful manufacture of over 40 million systems that have been delivered to provide optimal protection for vehicle occupants.

played a pivotal role.

To me that says pics arnt actualy in the system they just played a part in getting it together, and yes the keyloq thing is in keyfob's and radio's. A nice little earner for them.

anyway my opinion wont matter for another 10-20 years. For now it your opinion that counts, so for now microchip are in a good position.

ARM will be the future, smart phone technology will be the way things go. Pics will run out of the kind of power the future will need.
Maybe thats why microchip brought nokia, in an attempt to keep there market share once pc's are a thing of the past.