AC Motor controller to shift frequency from 50Hz to 60Hz

[Gatriel]

Hey All,

I am in Germany and will be importing an entire kitchen from the USA to Germany. I have a few questions for you high-voltage guys and would love to pick your brains.

For the "normal" appliances (Fridge, microwave, downdraft hood vent, igniter for gas cooktop) there is a company called Power XChanger and they build bespoke devices to do exactly what I need them to do, take 240v 50Hz out of the wall and convert it into 120v at 60Hz. The problem is they are quite expensive ($1,600 each). Given I am going to need five of these things, we're talking about $10,000 just to get 120v at 60Hz out of the wall.

I've stumbled upon the idea of using AC Motor controllers (something like this) and setting output frequency at 60Hz, and then taking the output of this and running into a transformer that would drop it down to the appropriate voltage so the final output would be 120v at 60Hz.

What is everyone's thoughts on this?

Also - one other question.

My wife and I are going back and forth on using a gas cooktop vs a induction cooktop. We both would prefer induction - but absolutely *HATE* the black sheet of glass look that you get here in Germany.

One can source nice looking US models but they are 11kw off of 2 phases at 240 volts at 60Hz (each phase is 50 amps) (240-208/120 VAC; 50/60Hz). The device (VICU53616B) is comfortable at 50 Hz according to the OEM, but it seems to be the dreaded 240-208/120 three-wire solution. I can give it 240 volts across both phases, but I have no way of getting it the 120v neutral line.

Anyone have any ideas how to accomplish this or should I simply go with gas and avoid this mess all-together?

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Also - if it helps - Cologne is perhaps the ugliest city in all of Germany next to Duisburg. Even Eisenhüttenstadt (a city personally designed by Stalin's favorite city planner and architect) is seen as a better-looking place to exist than Cologne is these days.

Had she gone essentially anywhere else it would have been a better experience. She visited the German version of Baltimore, basically.

Because she lives near the German border she often visits places in Germany, and see a lot of bands there - she's recently seen 'Lord Of The Lost' one of her favourite bands, although that was actually in the Netherlands this time. And she drove down to Frankenstein to buy a Hurdy Gurdy a few years back - she's also a regular visitor to Rockharz festival.

Apparently at gigs the Dutch crowds are really boring, so it's a much better gig going to Germany instead

Interesting Cologne isn't highly rated

 

[ZipZapOuch]

been a net negative for EVERY NATION THAT USES IT except for Luxembourg

Umm, can you elaborate on that claim? I just don't see as true, or measurable, or even possible that one nation has "winning" and the rest are all, somehow, losing based on the pretty decent economic conditions in every nation I've visited.

It seems like you need to get off of your couch and get involved in your government if you have so many opinions.

I could go on about "if Cologne is the lowest mark in all of Germany, things aren't too bad - I've spent some weeks there earlier this year" story but, the fact that your biggest concern with a German city is its beauty or ugliness instead of crime (beyond graffiti), poverty, education quality, availability of healthcare - things aren't so bad, right?

 

[ZipZapOuch]

Interesting Cologne isn't highly rated

If cologne is the bottom of the barrel, then Germany is doing really well.

 

[Tony Stewart]

I would ask the OEM to confirm if the appliance is sensitive to 50Hz such as V/f motor RPM and current effects or if they are converted to DC then BLDC. I would expect the control or instrument clusters may operate from 120Vac to DC may be low power while the high power to operate from 240V which could operate from an autotransformer.

 

[ZipZapOuch]

Its all a scam to extract wealth from normal people and give it to the government

You call it a "scam" but the rest of the world just calls it "taxes".

 

[Gatriel]

Umm, can you elaborate on that claim? I just don't see as true, or measurable, or even possible that one nation has "winning" and the rest are all, somehow, losing based on the pretty decent economic conditions in every nation I've visited.

It seems like you need to get off of your couch and get involved in your government if you have so many opinions.

I could go on about "if Cologne is the lowest mark in all of Germany, things aren't too bad - I've spent some weeks there earlier this year" story but, the fact that your biggest concern with a German city is its beauty or ugliness instead of crime (beyond graffiti), poverty, education quality, availability of healthcare - things aren't so bad, right?

Sure - gladly.

Before the Euro as a currency Germany ran a net trade surplus with all of Europe and basically the whole world. Nominal GDP growth was between 1948 and 1998 (the first year of the D-Mark and the last year of the free-floating D-Mark) almost 4%. Since 1999 annual growth is now 0.7% in nominal terms and is falling fast.

In real terms Germany had annual real growth of almost 3% from 48-98 and has been contracting in real terms from 98 to today.

Said simply - Germany has slowed since the introduction of the euro. This was in part by design as there is a single monetary policy for 18 member states and one couldn't have German real growth at 4% and Italy at 0.2% (as a quick example) and have the same monetary policy. In order to "harmonize" the "Union" all economies needed to be running at approximately the same speed.

Thus after the euro's introduction for a few years you had a market uptick in consumption by the states bordering the Med followed by contraction as the uptick in consumption was debt-fueled and not fueled by real growth. Simply, Italy (as an example) was able to consume German goods at a faster rate than it could produce and export goods.

This came to a head in 2009 with the first big Euro debt crisis, then again in 2011 with the next big euro debt crisis, then in 2013 with the next big euro debt crisis - each time the German taxpayer stepped into to "paper over" the solution until. Then finally in 2014 the cumulative effect of these "bail outs" the EFSF and the ESM (I worked on the latter) exhausted Germany's ability to bail out these nations' consumption binges (and the debt that backed them) and the ECB dropped overnight rates below zero.

I would also point out that the common distraction here in Germany is "Look how good the stock market is doing - the Euro and the EU are great for Germany." The point I would make is trickle-down economics doesn't work. Period. In our hyper-financialized world, simply because owners of equity are doing well does not mean the middle class, the society or the underlying economy is doing well.

TL;DR - Germany had a growing economy until the Euro was introduced, then it began shortly thereafter to slow and once the taxpayer had to start bailing out ClubMed - any gains Germany would have pocketed (As a society) were redistributed back to the South to a greater extent that the German economy was able to capitalize on "synergies" once the € was introduced.

===

I have no problem with taxes when taxes are used to improve society from which the taxes are derived. Where I am - there are schools with inadequate heating systems, meanwhile our government has spent hundreds of billions of euros bailing out the Italian, Spanish and Greek banking systems and just today Scholz wants to "donate" another €8 billion to Ukraine.

I am not describing taxes - I am describing a form of neo-feudalism.

===

Concerning how to measure a city's beauty - what you described all goes together. You cannot have a aesthetically beautiful city with an uneducated, poor and sick population inhabitating it. A city's aesthetic reflects the people living in it.

A city like Cologne, Berlin or Hamburg which is covered in graffiti, trash is everywhere and there is a general sense of apathy towards how the place you live looks - your problems are societal (As you described) and they are currently manifesting themselves with an ugly city.

 

[ZipZapOuch]

Sure - gladly.

Before the Euro as a currency Germany ran a net trade surplus with all of Europe and basically the whole world. Nominal GDP growth was between 1948 and 1998 (the first year of the D-Mark and the last year of the free-floating D-Mark) almost 4%. Since 1999 annual growth is now 0.7% in nominal terms and is falling fast.

In real terms Germany had annual real growth of almost 3% from 48-98 and has been contracting in real terms from 98 to today.

Said simply - Germany has slowed since the introduction of the euro. This was in part by design as there is a single monetary policy for 18 member states and one couldn't have German real growth at 4% and Italy at 0.2% (as a quick example) and have the same monetary policy. In order to "harmonize" the "Union" all economies needed to be running at approximately the same speed.

Thus after the euro's introduction for a few years you had a market uptick in consumption by the states bordering the Med followed by contraction as the uptick in consumption was debt-fueled and not fueled by real growth. Simply, Italy (as an example) was able to consume German goods at a faster rate than it could produce and export goods.

This came to a head in 2009 with the first big Euro debt crisis, then again in 2011 with the next big euro debt crisis, then in 2013 with the next big euro debt crisis - each time the German taxpayer stepped into to "paper over" the solution until. Then finally in 2014 the cumulative effect of these "bail outs" the EFSF and the ESM (I worked on the latter) exhausted Germany's ability to bail out these nations' consumption binges (and the debt that backed them) and the ECB dropped overnight rates below zero.

I would also point out that the common distraction here in Germany is "Look how good the stock market is doing - the Euro and the EU are great for Germany." The point I would make is trickle-down economics doesn't work. Period. In our hyper-financialized world, simply because owners of equity are doing well does not mean the middle class, the society or the underlying economy is doing well.

TL;DR - Germany had a growing economy until the Euro was introduced, then it began shortly thereafter to slow and once the taxpayer had to start bailing out ClubMed - any gains Germany would have pocketed (As a society) were redistributed back to the South to a greater extent that the German economy was able to capitalize on "synergies" once the € was introduced.

===

I have no problem with taxes when taxes are used to improve society from which the taxes are derived. Where I am - there are schools with inadequate heating systems, meanwhile our government has spent hundreds of billions of euros bailing out the Italian, Spanish and Greek banking systems and just today Scholz wants to "donate" another €8 billion to Ukraine.

I am not describing taxes - I am describing a form of neo-feudalism.

===

Concerning how to measure a city's beauty - what you described all goes together. You cannot have a aesthetically beautiful city with an uneducated, poor and sick population inhabitating it. A city's aesthetic reflects the people living in it.

A city like Cologne, Berlin or Hamburg which is covered in graffiti, trash is everywhere and there is a general sense of apathy towards how the place you live looks - your problems are societal (As you described) and they are currently manifesting themselves with an ugly city.

A very German thing to do is to claim there is a problem when there is really no problem - there is just a feeling things should be "better". Worse yet, they tend to assign the source of a "problem" (i.e. reason things aren't better) to something they have no blame for.

The timing of the euro is unfortunate and easily blamed, however...
Economic growth is a combination of population growth and exports.
- Germany's birth rate is terribly low and aboutthe only people having babies are the low-income (or government supported) immigrant population or the wealthiest 10% (so someone can inherit their wealth).
- Germany pushed for the creation of a common currency (the D-mark was the currency locked to the ECU (before it was called the "euro") and Germany desperately wanted a locked currency across Europe with free flow of capital and people because the cost of "cross boarder processes" would not let them compete with the rest of the world to serve European markets. That is, it was easier and cheaper to transport goods from China or the "NAFTA" into some countries than it was from Germany. Germany was already starting to suffer export strain.
- everyone (including you) point to Jan 1, 1999 as the date everything started to go wrong - when, in fact, major European currency exchange rates had been locked to the d-Mark long before that by treaty and minor currencies (Italian lira) was locked with a minimal 6% float.

- Many of the "EU Regulations" seem like burdens to the german people but these emissions related, recycle-related, safety-related, ...-related regulations have a basis in keeping foreign-made products out of Europe. That's why Tata Motors, Cherry Motors and a range of other vehicles, appliances, food products, medical & personal car products are not allowed in Europe (the U.S. has done similar things).

TL;DR - Germany's economic growth beyond Y2K was anticipated and Germany was the driving force behind a single currency to support their extend the growth of their markets through efficiency and competition. I would argue the Euro has helped Germany more than hurt it.

Lastly, the $8B to Ukraine is one of the best INVESTMENTS Germany can make - if Ukraine loses the war, Germany (especially Putin's beloved East Germany) is only 1 Poland away. Germany's spending on military buildup, forced military service of young people (and their loss as productive tax payers for some years) and general unease of the population will cost so much more than what has been given (and will continue to be given ) to Ukraine. It's the best tax Euros Germany has spent thus year. Way better than preventing or cleaning up graffiti.

 

[Gatriel]

A very German thing to do is to claim there is a problem when there is really no problem - there is just a feeling things should be "better". Worse yet, they tend to assign the source of a "problem" (i.e. reason things aren't better) to something they have no blame for.

The timing of the euro is unfortunate and easily blamed, however...
Economic growth is a combination of population growth and exports.
- Germany's birth rate is terribly low and aboutthe only people having babies are the low-income (or government supported) immigrant population or the wealthiest 10% (so someone can inherit their wealth).
- Germany pushed for the creation of a common currency (the D-mark was the currency locked to the ECU (before it was called the "euro") and Germany desperately wanted a locked currency across Europe with free flow of capital and people because the cost of "cross boarder processes" would not let them compete with the rest of the world to serve European markets. That is, it was easier and cheaper to transport goods from China or the "NAFTA" into some countries than it was from Germany. Germany was already starting to suffer export strain.
- everyone (including you) point to Jan 1, 1999 as the date everything started to go wrong - when, in fact, major European currency exchange rates had been locked to the d-Mark long before that by treaty and minor currencies (Italian lira) was locked with a minimal 6% float.

- Many of the "EU Regulations" seem like burdens to the german people but these emissions related, recycle-related, safety-related, ...-related regulations have a basis in keeping foreign-made products out of Europe. That's why Tata Motors, Cherry Motors and a range of other vehicles, appliances, food products, medical & personal car products are not allowed in Europe (the U.S. has done similar things).

TL;DR - Germany's economic growth beyond Y2K was anticipated and Germany was the driving force behind a single currency to support their extend the growth of their markets through efficiency and competition. I would argue the Euro has helped Germany more than hurt it.

Lastly, the $8B to Ukraine is one of the best INVESTMENTS Germany can make - if Ukraine loses the war, Germany (especially Putin's beloved East Germany) is only 1 Poland away. Germany's spending on military buildup, forced military service of young people (and their loss as productive tax payers for some years) and general unease of the population will cost so much more than what has been given (and will continue to be given ) to Ukraine. It's the best tax Euros Germany has spent thus year. Way better than preventing or cleaning up graffiti.

Without a doubt the reason for Germany's slow-down post-Euro is multi-faceted and its not exclusively the fault of the euro - but the euro did play a non-insignificant role in its slow down.

A "hard-locked" currency was initially thought to be beneficial for Germany as seemingly overnight, the Fiat Panda cost as much as a VW Golf did, given Italy (again as example) couldn't devalue its currency to get a competitive advantage against Germany.

As long as these larger purchases on credit kept coming, it seemed like the idea of a fixed FX between dramatically different economies would be great for holders of German equities (NVM the domestic supply chains that were all getting shut down and sent to Poland and Hungry, that is another story for another time I suppose). However, once ClubMed was no longer able to borrow at a rate faster than it could export - suddenly things like "youth unemployment" and "under employment" became real problems for these economies, killing off a generation's ability to consume and start families (mind you Italy has the worst birth rate in all of Europe, even worse than Germany).

What became apparent around 2015 is that the consumers in Europe were only able to purchase and strive for premium German goods if they had reliable sources of income themselves. A Spanish guy in his early 30s with two kids and a wife before the euro could perhaps afford a nice VW Passat. A Spanish guy in his early 30s with two kids and a wife after the Euro but before the credit binge stopped could perhaps afford a nice 5 series touring. A Spanish guy in his early 30s with two kids and a wife after the euro and after the debt-binge stopped couldn't afford either.

The tragedy of the Euro I suppose.

Its a very sad what is going on in Ukraine. The question isn't nor has it ever been "can Ukraine win" - the answer has been "no" since Feb. 24 2022 and hasn't changed. Thus the (close to €20 billion in total aide of which an undisclosed number by typically through to be €8 to €10 bn) aide donated to Ukraine is wasted and only prolongs the war.

But that was always the goal of Nato. Sacrifice Ukraine to weaken Russia.

Its also interesting (I am not saying you've said this - but merely making the general observation) that the exact same people that bleat on and on about how pathetic and weak the Russian military is are the same ones telling Germany to keep paying the Ukrainians more and more money (Anthony Blinkin comes to mind) in both cash and weapons because "Russia is only 1 Poland away ..."

What is it?

Is Russia as weak as you say? If so then its not my problem nor is it my war. Let the Ukrainians take care of it.

If Russia isn't as weak as we are told and our government is lying to us again (there is that bit about neo-feudalism again) - then the question is can the Poles stop them? If not - then what makes us think the German Bundeswehr could stop them when only 7% of young German men would be willing to fight Russia for the BND?

Fun fact - in 2019 the Bundeswehr spent more money in gender reassignment surgery for its soldiers than it did on combat aircraft R&D.

 

[ZipZapOuch]

Fun fact - in 2019 the Bundeswehr spent more money in gender reassignment surgery for its soldiers than it did on combat aircraft R&D.

Because they are desperate to keep ALL of the 7% who are willing to fight for their country - keeping someone in the military a bit longer with a simple gender reassignment surgery is cheaper than recruiting a new soldier. Also, they let the Allie's with a lot of aircraft design experience continue - starting a separate aircraft R&D program makes no sense.

only 7% of young German men would be willing to fight Russia for the BND?

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Its a very sad what is going on in Ukraine. The question isn't nor has it ever been "can Ukraine win" - the answer has been "no" since Feb. 24 2022 and hasn't changed. Thus the (close to €20 billion in total aide of which an undisclosed number by typically through to be €8 to €10 bn) aide donated to Ukraine is wasted and only prolongs the war.

I would completely disagree - Russia are completely incompetent, badly trained (if trained at all), and through all the levels of government and military people are continually stealing.

Russia tactics are simply to throw as many people forward to be slaughtered to use up all the enemies ammunition, just as they always have.

I certainly originally expected Russia to just roll straight over Ukraine, but once that didn't happen it became apparent how inept the Russians actually were.

As long as the West keep supplying arms and ammunition it's more likely Russia will lose the war, and even lose Crimea that they captured previously.

Certainly for the West, that would be a FAR, FAR better outcome than Russia taking over Ukraine.

We can just sit back and see what happens!.

 

[ZipZapOuch]

I would completely disagree - Russia are completely incompetent, badly trained (if trained at all), and through all the levels of government and military people are continually stealing.

Russia tactics are simply to throw as many people forward to be slaughtered to use up all the enemies ammunition, just as they always have.

I certainly originally expected Russia to just roll straight over Ukraine, but once that didn't happen it became apparent how inept the Russians actually were.

As long as the West keep supplying arms and ammunition it's more likely Russia will lose the war, and even lose Crimea that they captured previously.

Certainly for the West, that would be a FAR, FAR better outcome than Russia taking over Ukraine.

We can just sit back and see what happens!.

Once Russia gets through Ukraine they would separate east Europe by taking Moldova in 10 minutes, then he either routes the easily knocked off NATO members Slovakia and the Czech Republic or he plows into .Hungary (who may not even ask for NATO help and then Austria (non-NATO member.

If countries don't want to support Ukraine, why would they want to help Austria either, right? 95% of the opposition to supporting Ukraine came from Russian bot farms and easily persuaded disenchanted Millennials that their country shouldn't support Ukraine. Those who have lived through the Cold War, know the investment in Ukraine is the right thing to do, morally and strategically.

 

[Gatriel]

I am certainly not a bot and can definitely tell you in my part of Germany (former East) that if the Russian military showed up here, they'd be greeted with sausages and vodka at the border with maps pre-translated into Russian of the quickest routes to the Kanzleramt.

Nigel,

I respectfully disagree. I think each side has had their set of failures and blunders. It amazes me without exception that the Russians sometimes send huge amounts of armor and personell directly into the most defended bits of the Ukrainian line to get chewed up and spit out. Then, the Ukrainians in turn send huge amounts of armor and personell directly into the most defended bits of the Russian Line to get chewed up and spit out. Then after seeing this, the Russians elected to send a larger grouping of armor and personnel into the same heavily defended fortified line just for the same thing to happen. Then, the Ukrainians not wanting to be left out take all their goodies from NATO and their NATO-trained troops and send them directly into the most heavily defended Russian lines just to get obliterated.

Repeat.

However - it seem you and ZipZap both make the same mistake (from my perspective). Ukraine has been fighting a Maneuver war (<- Hyperlink) while Russia has been fighting an Attritional War (<- Hyperlink).

The general thought of "Russia hasn't taken much territory thus they are losing".

There are first logical problems with this thought. If you compare today to March 15 2022, you'd be correct. If you use the same barometer and compare territorial gains/losses from today to February 15 2022, you'd be incorrect. Don't pick specific dates simply because it supports a narrative you find emotionally more comforting. Its a war. Its logistics. Its supply chains. Its domestic manufacturing base. Its lack of corruption (Ukraine does even worse than Russia in this department).

Furthermore, this line of reasoning assumes infinite resources for both sides (which is obviously incorrect).

When I look at weapons deliveries to Ukraine - they have been slowing for months now especially since the Ukrainian spring/summer/fall offensive failed. Since the thing in Gaza kicked off - the flow of weapons to Ukraine has been reduced to a trickle.

Meanwhile Russia is running their factories 24/7 and purchasing millions of rounds from North Korea (read: China).

Russia has one of the best MIC in the world. Ukraine doesn't have one and cannot build one given every time they start to build something it gets turned into a hole in the ground.

So the Russian game plan (from how I perceive things) is that they are seeking to exhaust Ukrainian supply lines of weapons and then do another attempt at a decapitation strike.

As we see now, many weapons systems originally destined for Ukraine are being redirected to Israel. Germany, Poland, the US, the UK have all stated that their ability to continue supplying Ukraine with weapons exceeds their ability to produce right now and must slow or stop.

Then you have instances such as Morocco who sold their fleet of T-72 tanks to the US who gave them to Ukraine and was promised by the US that these T-72 tanks would get backfilled with Merkava III tanks from Israel.

Oddly enough Israel suspended that sale last month.

Many countries have seen this stab in the back and will not be parting with more weapons.

The armor Ukraine is now receiving was all designed in the 1950s (so Leopard 1a5, which if we are honest is simply a Panther 2 designed in the 1930s) and the M113 APC which was designed in the 1950s and is Aluminium !!!! (crazy).

Meanwhile many US/UK news outlets still bleat on about "Russia running out of weapons" "Russia running out of trained men" "Russia running out of tanks" "Russia geopolitically isolated from the world"

Unfortunately, many in the English-speaking world believe such nonsense and also believe in their odd sense of military invincibility (don't ask them about Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Syria or Libya though) and will likely suffer the expected fait of an empire more concerned with gender reassignment surgery than building capable weapons systems.

On a note about that - most men in Germany who are were inclined to serve in the Bundeswehr are socially conservative, straight, white, Christian men. This demographic has been the backbone of the Western military since time-immortal and the "woke" and "socially conscious and aware" "values" of the Bundeswehr drive these people away from the service. Add on top of that contemporary society has made them the "devil" and reason for all of societies woes - and they no longer want to risk life and limb to protect this social/political system.

The West has really backed itself into a corner. Unless it can change course socially and politically very quickly - should there be a large war the Western militaries would fold like a house of cards quickly.

 

[ZipZapOuch]

However - it seem you and ZipZap both make the same mistake (from my perspective). Ukraine has been fighting a Maneuver war (<- Hyperlink) while Russia has been fighting an Attritional War (<- Hyperlink).

do you even read what other people say?

Nigel said...

Russia tactics are simply to throw as many people forward to be slaughtered to use up all the enemies ammunition, just as they always have.

What "mistake" did Nigel make? His description is exactly the definition of Attrition - and the exact tactic Russia is using.

Everything else you say makes you sound like a Russian sympathizer, Russian Troll or a Russian bot.

 

[Gatriel]

Nigel described Russia taking causalities due to stupidity of their commanders.

That is not Russia waging an attritional war on Ukraine, that is Russian field commanders being idiots.

The goal of attritional war is to destroy the fighting capabilities of the enemy's armed forces at a faster rate than they destroy yours and at a faster rate than they can resupply.

Russia is not waging an attritional war against itself but against Ukraine.

Do you even read what I wrote or linked to?

Just because different viewpoints and perspectives conflate with your BBC/Fox News views of the Ukrainian conflict does not make what I have to say about the topic any less truthful.

When you start calling me names because we are of differing opinions - it means you lack anything constructive or intelligent to say.

 

[Ian Rogers]

I feel this topic is well and trully gone south.
This isn't a political dais and name calling is "Verbotten" So I'll close it now.

Gatriel. I think you have your answer.

Thread closed.