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22nH inductor - how to create

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Mosaic told me...


Thanks for a calculation MrAI but what I'm asking is how long can a wire be before it qualifies as a radiator?


My computer is old. It only has one CPU.

Hi,

Oh, about the length of one electron :)

In any wire of any length that has current flow we might see some radiation. The radiation occurs when electrons get accelerated, and electrons get accelerated when the current changes. It doesnt matter if they are in a wire that is 1 inch long or 1 mile long or 1mm long.
You could look up some antenna gains though if you want to see what is considered 'better' for radiating by considering what is better for receiving There's a formula somewhere that will relate the length of the antenna to the wave length.
Also note that if you have electron acceleration in one direction in one wire if you have another wire close to it with acceleration in the opposite direction the radiation will partly cancel. The two vertical sections of the upside down square loop have such a configuration so we dont see as much radiation along the entire 3*1.6cm length.

If you want to know more details you should find a site that is dedicated to stuff like this. What i used was the Biot Savart Law and solved for a square loop that has one side missing, using a direct multi dimensional inegration method that makes no approximations. That means the result is exact, but unfortunately we get these other side issues coming into play such as the mutual inductance of the rest of the circuit and so we are always working with an approximation once we leave the drawing board, or in today's world, once we leave the symbolic math software environment :) This makes SOME real world experimentation always necessary. I site dedicated to this stuff may have people who do this on an every day basis, and so can provide some ideas that apply once you have something up and running. But i dont think there will ever be a circuit that like this that does not need at least some adjustment. The usual way is to build a coil based on a textbook formula and make it have a slightly larger inductance than needed, then spread the turns slightly in order to adjust it once it is in the actual circuit.
 
The usual way is to build a coil based on a textbook formula and make it have a slightly larger inductance than needed, then spread the turns slightly in order to adjust it once it is in the actual circuit.
I understand experimentation is nice but I don't want to make an illegal transmitter. I'm in Canada and if I transmit on the wrong frequency then I could interrupt an important service
 
Thats simple enough to address. Place your circuit inside a grounded faraday cage (metal can/grid) to limit radiated EMI and include ferrite beads on the power supply lines to limit conducted UHF.
BTW how much powr are u consuming in the RF part of the circuit?

Best way to know is to borrow a spectrum analyzer with quasipeak capability and use some near field probes such as beehive brand.
 
I understand experimentation is nice but I don't want to make an illegal transmitter. I'm in Canada and if I transmit on the wrong frequency then I could interrupt an important service

Sorry, but you ARE planning making an illegal transmitter - do you have the capability for fully testing it?, and does Canada require such devices to be approved by their regulators (at HUGE expense to you).

This is why pretty well everyone uses ready built (tested and approved) modules.
 
Sorry, but you ARE planning making an illegal transmitter - do you have the capability for fully testing it?, and does Canada require such devices to be approved by their regulators (at HUGE expense to you).

This is why pretty well everyone uses ready built (tested and approved) modules.

I have made superregen receivers and I may even buy a module just for testing and calibration purposes. I'm also intending to use precise parts in my circuit as well as utilizing only frequencies that Canada is OK with for amateur-like operation.

Another reason why I want to invent one is because I want to make it where the station can be changed digitally. This is because in a future a law might exist where a frequency one is permitted to transmit data/audio on now may no longer be legal in the future.

For example, pre-made modules exist now for wireless transmission/reception only at frequency 433Mhz. If I buy those modules right now, you may think it would solve my radio issues, however it would become a disaster if the government decides with little or no notice to make 433Mhz no longer a permitted frequency to transmit on because then I'll have to shut down my transmissions until I find and order new modules that run on a frequency approved by the government and this period will be at least a month since the parts will need to be ordered online and mailed over to me.

If however I make my own module with the ability to change stations then I can use a microcontroller to change the station very quickly and continue operations right away if the first station is illegal.
 
Also, this makes me curious. Why do people who own wifi routers in canada not need a license to use them? After all, they transmit data
 
I understand experimentation is nice but I don't want to make an illegal transmitter. I'm in Canada and if I transmit on the wrong frequency then I could interrupt an important service

Hello there,

You are building a 433MHz transmitter and you are worried about transmitting on 433Mhz. That doesnt make a lot of sense to me so maybe you could explain :)

If you transmit on the wrong frequency then you dont have the inductor adjusted properly for the total circuit inductance.
There's almost no way to get it perfect the first time because there are parasitic quantities that enter into the total inductance in the actual real life circuit, and the only way to compensate for that with a home made non crystal controlled circuit is to TUNE it. The tuning is almost always necessary if you are using this for part of the oscillator or part of a filter like a band pass filter.

You absolutely must measure the frequency. If you are so worried about getting it wrong then you should turn to a crystal controlled oscillator of some kind.
 
The thing is I want to create a wireless system that transmits frequently at a length roughly the same size as a diagonal length of a large individual store. Let's say wifi for example. The reason why I picked 433Mhz is because its known as an amateur band (or at least close to it) and I believe its more reliable than lower frequencies plus I think it can transmit through walls better than the lower frequencies. If I pick too high of frequency then I think I'll lose signal distance unless I waste more power. The truth is parts of the wireless system runs on batteries.
 
At 433MHz, the wire becomes a radiator and almost all the energy delivered to the circuit will be radiated as EM. You have to "tap-off" the wire, part-way along its length to get a feedback signal to keep the oscillator working. That's why you make the wire out of a PCB track.
It's much more complex than you think and you need 10 years understanding in this field to know what to do.

I would have to say, based on the law of thermodynamics, your statement is in error. If almost all the energy were to be dissipated as EM by the wire, then there would be little left at the load. In a perfect transmission line, the currents and voltage down the wire (transmission line) would be transferred into the load and there would be no EM of concern. It is only when there is a impedance mismatch that one would experience EM radiation on the wire as the reflected waves transverse back along the wire.
According to Howard Johnson's writings, treating RF carrying medium as transmission line and maintaining impedance matching reduces EM radiation.
 
Also, this makes me curious. Why do people who own wifi routers in canada not need a license to use them? After all, they transmit data

Because they use a licence free band, and are tested and approved for that use - approval which your home made system will need to pass to be legal.
 
Another reason why I want to invent one is because I want to make it where the station can be changed digitally. This is because in a future a law might exist where a frequency one is permitted to transmit data/audio on now may no longer be legal in the future.

Sorry, but that sounds the most stupid 'reason' I've ever heard :D

There are only a small number of licence free frequencies in use, and all spectrum is allocated - so they aren't going to suddenly ban an existing frequency and magically invent a new one.

Basically you are trying to design and build an illegal device, with little understanding of the principles involved, and presumably with no intention of getting it approved (assuming it would pass approval?) and making it legal.
 
Because they use a licence free band, and are tested and approved for that use
Thats what I plan to do... find a licence-free band which is why I was wanting to run on 433Mhz in the first place.

Basically you are trying to design and build an illegal device..
I'm actually trying to build a device that can be approved/legalized.

And get a load of this... I was reading the rules for my country with regards to radio transmitters (source: https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf08655.html#D1) and it states:

13. How do I know if licence-exempt radio equipment is approved for use in Canada?

Before a licence-exempt radio device can be sold in Canada, manufacturers must demonstrate to the Department that the device meets applicable technical and regulatory requirements. Once a radio device has been approved for use in Canada, Industry Canada will provide the manufacturer with a certification/registration number.

All radio devices approved for use in Canada will bear a label noting Industry Canada's certification/registration number. If the radio device is not labeled with an Industry Canada certification/registration number, it is not approved for use in Canada.

And I look at sever commercial radio devices in my home (mainly wifi internet and cell phone) and I don't see any certification number on them. Now I'm beginning to wonder if most of the transmitting devices today are illegal.

Nevertheless, I will still have my transmitter evaluated by the government once its officially done.
 
Nevertheless, I will still have my transmitter evaluated by the government once its officially done.

And have you investigated what that will cost? - certainly in most countries it's a substantial amount, OK if you're wanting approval for many thousands of items, but not for small numbers.

As for what is currently on the market there, it's doubtful that Chinese manufacturers would bother getting certification from your government.
 
And have you investigated what that will cost?
For licence-free, zero, plus I'm going to abide to the restrictions of not being allowed to interfere with another station and be able to accept interference.

certainly in most countries it's a substantial amount
Thats for full licence

As for what is currently on the market there, it's doubtful that Chinese manufacturers would bother getting certification from your government.

Thats the crazy thing. some wireless devices here in Canada are made in china.
 
WiFi repeaters are already marketed by a few dozen manufacturers all made by a little guy and his brother in Beijing, China. Designing the boards, even for a 433 MHz repeater for data is a complex process involving PCB design skills I do not see in your post. Your best option would get to the two guys in China with a garage. This started with LtSpice and this is what it was all about? I wish you the best of luck and have a nice day. :)


Ron
 
For licence-free, zero, plus I'm going to abide to the restrictions of not being allowed to interfere with another station and be able to accept interference.

Are you suggesting Canada carry out the entire approval and certification process for free?.

Thats for full licence

I'm not talking about licence costs, I'm talking about 'approval' costs - something which has pretty well killed off home made RF devices, as paying the thousands (tens of thousands?) renders it non-viable for small quantities.
 
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