Which is Best: DM410 Dremel Drilling Station or Proxxon IB/E + MB 140/S?

[Analogue Robot]

Hello All.

I need to get a new drilling set-up capable of producing very fine holes in PCBs (as small as 0.4mm).

There are two possibilities I have in mind:

i) "DM410 Dremel Drilling Station"

http://www.megauk.com/pcb_drilling_machines.php#PBD01

or

ii) "Professional Drill/Grinder IB/E" used with the "Micromot Drill Stand MB 140/S"

http://www.proxxon-direct.com/acatalog/professional_drill_grinder_ibe.html

http://www.proxxon-direct.com/acatalog/micromot_drill_stand_mb_140s.html


- At this point I am inclined toward the Proxxon; it seems more versatile so I could use it for more than PCB drilling.

Do any of you have personal experience of either option? - I'd appreciate your thoughts on each.

Thanks in advance.

Analogue.

 

[Sceadwian]

I don't particularly care for Dremel as a brand name, I haven't had a positive experience with the quality of their products in recent years, too much curvy plastic for pretties not enough functional metal, a variable speed tool I purchased a few years ago had the motors brush cover break off the first time I opened it.. Looks like you'll spend a bit more for the Micromot, but the images shown look like it's construction is much more solid and usable. The Dremel's base looks like it's made of the same Nylon, or at least plastic. The Micromot unit is all metal and much more solid looking.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

All of the reviews I've seen said the Dremel has too much runout and Proxxon is definately better.

I took a Dremel apart and found the construction less than satisfactory and told Dremel so.. Dremel offered to fix it (discontinued), but I said no. I was in the middle of a Job and I bought the 4000, I think. I haven't taken the 4000 apart yet. I ended up with multiple attachments because I really could not buy the tool only.

 

[Blueteeth]

As far as the dremel tool itself goes, I haven't had trouble with mine (Dremel 300...). It has no play on the collet/chuck, and the variable speed is only used for 'fast' for PCB carbide bits, and 'not so fast' for everything else. For the price I got it, £50 ex display, it was worth it, and hasn't failed me.

What DID annoy me was the relatively cheap drill stand I got for it. This was a poor decision on my part as I jsut went for the 'slightly' cheaper one avaliable:
**broken link removed** (jsut the stand). It has slight play during the travel which I cannot seem to get rid off no matter how much tweaking I do. For most apps that wouldn't be much of an issue,but for PCB holes < 0.8mm it snaps carbide bits quite often, and can mean off-centre holes when drill with a HSS. I've got quite good at aiming '2'o'clock' of the drill centre... or losely holding the PCB down so a HSS can catch it and pull it centre - neither option is pleasant, professional or good for the bits.


Given the two links, the proxxon rotary tool looks to me to be better than the dremel tool, it seems to be geared more for precision hobby work than dremels 'look how many attachments we have' approach. As for the stands, whilst the megaUK one looks basic, the dual pillars should stop any wandering travel. Sure its less versatile - I'm tinking tahts for PCB's/flat pieces only - but the proxxon's vice and base is just gold. So I guess, if yo're doing PCB's only, the megaUK one might have the edge. Any possibility of drilling 'other things', proxxon all the way.

Wish they would make stands 'vender independant'. I'd order that proxxon stand right now if I didn't have to buy a new tool to use it with.

Seems someone has review the 'official' dremel one vs the proxxon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JyTf1tJXXo

 

[misterT]

Proxxon is better. Better quality etc. Dremel looks nicer because of all the plastic parts. We have both at work and nobody uses the Dremel.

 

[Boncuk]

I used an "Isel automation" drill stand with a powerful DC-motor.

The motor was double ball bearing equipped and had a maximum horizontal spindle play of 1/10,000mm (important for drills of <0.3mm diameter since any horizontal play will break the carbide drill bit when penetrating the board). There was no vertical play, which is important for a clean cut when starting to drill a hole.

I used a Proxxon rotary saw which worked nicely for about one month. After that time the machine started screaming with no movement of the saw blade, meaning the belt was driven by the motor with a stuck shaft of the saw.

The reason was found quickly. They were no ball bearings fitted and the shaft was exposed to saw dust ruining the shaft.

I had to make a new shaft with maintenance free ball bearings which worked properly for many years cutting PCBs and aluminum sheets.

Boncuk

 

[Analogue Robot]

@ All - Thanks for the replies so far. NB, I wrote I was drilling holes "as small as 0.4mm". - That was wrong; it should have been 0.6mm. - Don't know if it makes any appreciable difference to your replies.

@ Blueteeth: Thanks for the warning about the stand from Rapid. - It looks good in the pictures; plenty of metal and not "plasticy". It's just the sort of thing I might have gone for myself.

Given Mega's reputation as PCB specialists I can't imagine them selling a dud drill stand, but I'm not entirely comfortable with spending the money on an item with a single use. I will do it if I must.

You know the vice in the Proxxon picture doesn't come with the stand; you have to buy it separately. Of course, the warning is not particularly prominent ;-)

Interestingly, the video that you linked was exactly where I first became aware of the Proxxon gear I'm asking about now, and also the serious shortcomings of the Dremel stand to which he compares it.

@ MisterT: is the Dremel stand you have at work the same version as the one I am considering buying from Mega? If so, what bad things do they say about it?

@ Boncuk: do you have any more info about the Isel stand you used, please? - I've googled Isel briefly and haven't been able to find anything useful yet.

Thanks again guys.

Analogue.

 

[misterT]

@ MisterT: is the Dremel stand you have at work the same version as the one I am considering buying from Mega? If so, what bad things do they say about it?

At work we have a Dremel drill stand that looks like this: **broken link removed**
It is light, shaky.. etc. Not a good quality. I do not know about the DM405D drill stand, but it looks more like a "nice design" rather than good engineering.

The proxxon drill stand does it job well.. no tricks, just plain good work.

 

[Analogue Robot]

Thanks, MisterT. - The Dremel stand you linked to is exactly the one I've seen people complaining about, so I decided to avoid it.

Sorry to be a pain, but is the Proxxon at your work the same as the one I am considering?

- Thanks.

Analogue.

 

[MrAl]

Hi,


Dremel has been around for a long time. I have a new Dremel rotory tool but also have one from the 1970's. I can say that the newer one is pretty nice, with enough power to do most smaller jobs and it has variable speed built into the tool.

The drill stand is a completely different matter altogether. The quality really just isnt there. It's cute, but it doesnt work well because there is too much play in the structure that makes up the neck. Here's what happens when you go to use a small drill bit like the carbide ones...

Lets say you are drilling a PC board. You chuck the bit in the rotory tool you've attached to the drill stand, you turn it on, you slowly bring the tip of the bit down closer and closer to the work piece. Eventually the drill bit tip comes in contact with the work piece. You pull the handle a little harder to get the drill bit to start drilling through the work surface and you notice that the whole drill stand structure warps a little because of the play in the neck parts. It cocks slightly and this means you have to pull the handle down a little more. This causes the angle between the drill bit and the work piece to change slightly. It was 90 degrees when the bit first touched the work piece top surface, but now it's a little less. Ok, so you pull down a little more, and you get a nice hole starting. The bit is part way through the work piece now, and you're applying a more or less constant pressure on the handle.
Suddenly the bit breaks through the back side of the board as it reaches the bottom surface and pokes through. Now there's no more pressure on the bit tip so the neck "uncocks" and that causes the angle to go back to near 90 degrees. This means you have a hole that is not 90 degrees but your bit is trying to change angle by a some small angle, which means the bit would have to bend. There's no other option because the neck structure gives at that point and goes back to the original shape before the bit first touched the surface, and the weakest link is the drill bit in that it can not force the structure to stay the same because it is too weak. That means the bit tries to bend slightly, and that might work if it is a high speed steel bit (although i wouldnt want to do that either) but if it is a carbide bit it's going to snap.
The amount of structure shape change is too much during this drilling process so the risk of breaking a bit is way too high unless you're using wide diameter bits like 1/8 inch or higher, but then the hole is still going to end up slightly oblong if it warps too much during the drilling.

I got a chance to actually try this that's how i know what happens. When i saw how much it changed shape i would not use a carbide bit even to experiment once with it, and certainly would not buy one even at only 40 dollars.

Sorry Dremel, but maybe you guys can redo the design and get it a little tighter so it works without so much warp during use.
Again on the positive side, their drill is really nice as far as i can see. It works the way i would expect it to work and seems to have enough power. IN fact, the drill stand is the only product i've ever tried from Dremel that didnt work properly.

 

[Blueteeth]

Yeah, I think the general concensous all over the web is: not matter what version, all presses/stands made by dremel are not for precision work, or carbide bits.
So the options left are proxxon, or an all-metal generic stand. Generic ones will probably never grip/hold all rotary tools perfectly, leading to possible inaccuracies (broken bits). That megaUK one is indeed a one-trick pony, but I can't see it working well with non-dremel tools. Only one I found that seems both study, accurate, AND able to take almost any rotary tool is this:

**broken link removed**

Similar one here from the US:
**broken link removed** (check the pictures out, even his dog 'cookie' says its a great deal!)

I have it on order as an impulse purchase. Hope I do'nt regret it

So, I probably said tis in my original post, but as you got me looking to replace my own stand (this thread highlighted how crap mine is, thus I started a new thread..) - Proxxon, hands down. Whether its 0.4mm, or 0.6mm, in terms of accuracy, I don't see that makes a difference. Might mean you need a different attachment as I believe the chuck only takes 0.6mm minimum if you're using straight-shank bits. But I've never needed anytihng less than 0.6mm.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

There are 4 collets for the Dremel: 1/8-inch, 3/32-inch, 1/16-inch, 1/32-inch

Then there is the drill chuck.

 

[Sceadwian]

I've used the chuck, they're not precisely constructed enough for good centering, wouldn't recommend it for anything let alone carbide, collets are WAY better unless chuck jaws are lapped and ground to decent precision, again this is my primary complaint with any Dremel device, poor quality control and construction methods. I've bought one Dremel tool in my life and several accesories. I'll never buy another one again, I'd GLADLY spend twice as much on a solidly constructed tool, it's just one of those places where you really don't want to go cheap, I mean sure if it's what you have (like me) I'll use it, but the moment I'm in a position to justify the cost of a new unit the Dremel's getting junked. Bougt the only Dremel branded things I would buy would be cutoff wheels or sanding bits, and even those are a waste of money in a store, you can find better professional bits that only cost slightly more.

 

[HankMcSpank]

I own/use the proxxon tool & drill stand...it's nice.

The one negative is kinda stupid, the 'arm' to tighten the collar is loose and slides down in the direction of the workpiece (depending how tight you tighten), meaning as you lower the spindle, it can sometimes impede you (ie especially if it's not exactly pointing 'true' downwards) ....I've read others reporting this and putting in workarounds with elastic bands to hold the offending piece 'up' and out of the way!

 

[Analogue Robot]

@ MrAl - Thanks for the explanation of just what goes wrong with the Dremel stands. - It's a pity that they didn't put the same amount of work into the stands as the actual drills. Looks to me that they let themselves down rather badly... If they want to draw in the custom I guess they could produce stands in various grades - "ordinary" for people who don't require a great deal of precision and better ones for those who do. They'd have the entire field covered then, but I don't know what it's worth to them economically.

@ Blueteeth - let's just hope cookie the dog knows his stuff ;-)

Actually, both of those stands look good. I watched the video of the Tainwanese model in use - looked fine to me: The guy said he was using 0.8mm and 1.5mm drill bits and he didn't seem to be struggling at all.

With the American one you also get all sorts free also. And at the very reasonable prices, if the Taiwanese press doesn't work out you could always try the American.

@HankMcSpank - So if I go the Proxxon route, as is looking almost certain now, I'll be okay to drill my 0.6mm holes and you don't anticipate any problems apart from the collar tightening arm? (I'm already thinking of a few nice solutions for the arm problem..)

Thanks guys.

Analogue.

 

[HankMcSpank]

To date, I've only drilled down to 0.8mm ...but it doesn't look/feel in the least bit dodgy drilling at that diameter...I reckon it'll do 0.6mm a breeze - re the arm problem, I'm of the lazy ilk & have just tolerated to date, but I'm all ears!

 

[misterT]

Sorry to be a pain, but is the Proxxon at your work the same as the one I am considering?
- Thanks.

The drill stand is the same, but the drill at our work is an older version.. not much different I believe.

 

[Analogue Robot]

@ HankMcSpank: that's good to hear. If I come up with a workable solution to the arm business, I'll let you know.

@ misterT: thanks for telling me: The Proxxon stand sounds perfect for my purposes.

Analogue.

 

[Blueteeth]

Didn't the guy in that youtube vid (the one comparing the proxxon with the dremel pos) mention using a rubber band or an O-ring to hold the arm that holds the collar? Granted, not elegant, but seems pretty straigthfoward/simple to do every time you remove/fix the rotary tool - which I doubt will be often if you're just a PCB driller.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Yep, but the "O-ring" goes on the Handle part of the "T" (the part that flops) and you probably would need two O-rings.