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Ultrasonic Vein Detector

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yasinnajib

New Member
hello all. I'm a third year insrumentation student working on a project for my current year , which if progresses then plan on continuing to the fourth.

The project is to develop a portable vein detector . So far the only viable option that we've come across is to use ultrasonics and measure pressure variations in the vein by creating a pressure gradient there, hence detecting the vein.

i havnt a clue on what kind of hardware to use .

pls do post any valuable information on hardware design and any other suggestions.
 

Sceadwian

Banned
What kind of vein are you talking about?
 

yasinnajib

New Member
preferably the one that comes from the top and joins the other near the forearm area of the hand.i saw it in an anatomy book.
but why do you ask...?
 

jpanhalt

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
Is this project to solve a real problem, such as to facilitate phlebotomy, or just to demonstrate application of ultrasonics?

If it is the former, locating the particular vein you are describing is not usually a problem. The problem occurs with getting a needle in it, not through it, and not collapsing it. There are many alternative sites (drug addicts can show them them to you :D), such as between the index and middle finger. Will your envisioned device work at all locations?

Finally, have you considered using other types of measurement devices or is the project limited to ultrasonics?

John
 

yasinnajib

New Member
firstly the device was not intented to demonstrate the use of ultrasonics in the field. i had mentioned earlier that ultrasonics seemed the best option in such a case.

i understand that depth as you had mentioned earlier is a crucial parameter but right now we were planning on locating the vein . location of the vein becomes important when dealing with people who are obese; the vein is hardly or completely invisible beneath layers and layers of adipose tissue and then there is the case of burn victims . In the first case multiple invasions are needed to locate the vein and make a sucessful withdrawal of blood and in the second case the charred skin usually provides the hindrance and multiple invasions can only add to the agony of the patient.

i suggested ultrasonics because in the second case we cannot find the vein by touching th surface of the skin or probing it with some instrument as it is a highly sensitive area. ultrasonics may provide the answer by skimming just above the surface rather than on it.

the other methods i came up with is
mono pulse laser doppler method
pressure gradient method

and the envisioned device is primarily desired to work on the area where doctors usually draw blood from ... although it may work on the areas described.

pls post any valuable improvements on the method if possible... and the hardware to be used.
 

KMoffett

Well-Known Member
From my knowledge, non-contact ultrasonics will not work. Every ultrasonic device I've seen in clinical use, requires not only contact, but also a interface gel between the skin and the transducer.

Ken
 

jpanhalt

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
This will not work:
untitled-1-gif.33827

(Source:Bloodbot, The Bright Future of Phlebotomy?)

You do not want to scare the patients, particularly children.

There are vein detectors based on IR (See: Phlebotomists | Phlebotomist, Blood Draw, Phlebotomy Techniques, Blood Draw Procedure | AccuVein). There is another based on getting a negative image from scattered light (See: https://www.pulmolab.com/laboratory/lab_supp/phlebotomy/vein_detect/V1415.html). I suspect there are other inventions that work or don't work about as well.

As for your analysis of the problem, I would separate burn patients into a whole different category from obese patients and young children. Drug addicts are another category. Old people are easy to find veins on, but often difficult to get good access, so they are a different category too.

I recommend that you focus on the obese and young patients, with the obese patient being the first. As for needing contact to use ultrasonic methods, in theory, that should not be an absolute deterrent to the technique. Have you considered using IR?

As for hardware design, the links I gave for IR and light-based methods are are pretty intuitive. For ultrasound, I suspect you will need to do some experimentation.

John
 

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yasinnajib

New Member
it will work... a team of three scientists from georgia tech has sucessfully finished a prototype. its there on their website. its portable and very compact.
 

jpanhalt

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
I suggest you begin by talking with the department in your hospital that does phlebotomy (probably the Pathology/ Laboratory Medicine Department) and with nursing staff to determine real needs and potential usefulness. If there is an outpatient commercial lab nearby, talk to its phlebotomists too. Don't ask, "Do you want something to make phlebotomy easier?" Instead, present something more concrete and get reactions to it. "Finding a vein" does not mean literally just finding a vein. It includes the concept that the vein can be successfully used for venipuncture. So, just finding a vein literally does no good if the vein moves around and can't be punctured to get access or blood.

John
 

yasinnajib

New Member
we've gone through that phase. people find that they can do without the device but they also suggested that it'd make things more easier.

the important part is that i have to go ahead with this. i've given a commitment to a few people that i can and its possible. forgive me , but i think it is.

i have some personell who works in hospital for referance ..they were even willing to give the average pressures of these veins so that i could calculate the mean pressure needed to collapse these veins and create a pressure gradient.

and the area which we intend to use the vein detector has only 2-3 veins. of whic only a particular vein is used in conventional venipuncture. i'd give you the name of the vein but i have to go through the anatomy book again. so the area of detection is very limited and the chances that a vein which is not suitable for venipucture is detected are low.
 

jpanhalt

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
we've gone through that phase. people find that they can do without the device but they also suggested that it'd make things more easier.

That is kind of a noise level one has to deal with in interest groups. It is hard to tell someone their proposal is less useful than ironing shoelaces. That is not meant as an insult, just a fact.

I understand that you are committed to doing this and assume you are not in the USA. If you are in the USA, there are some details you need to comply with. Other countries may have similar procedural details, but I am not familiar with them, so won't comment further about that aspect.

I believe strongly in quick and dirty, proof of concept experiments before getting too deep into a project. Have you tried available ultrasound devices for locating peripheral veins? As for the names of the three veins, they are not necessary. I know the two (three) you are referring to. I would caution that medical judgment must be exercised in selection of the best vein. It is not always the largest nor most obvious one.

Anyway, let's proceed with your project. Can you get help from a radiology department or whichever department does ultrasonic imaging at your place to find out whether you can visualize the peripheral veins in the area you describe?

John
 
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yasinnajib

New Member

Mikebits

Well-Known Member
Sounds like your taking on an enormous task, you have much research to do. Perhaps this is beyond your scope. This project may take more time to develop than what you have.
 

yasinnajib

New Member
pls permit me to continue on atleast a probationary basis. i have a workforce of two others and faculty from a reputed fluid control research institute. we are basically instrumentation engineers and are well versed with sensing mechanisms. we need some guidance on the project.

if you still suggest that it is beyond my scope i will consider it strongly .
 

Mikebits

Well-Known Member
pls permit me to continue on atleast a probationary basis. i have a workforce of two others and faculty from a reputed fluid control research institute. we are basically instrumentation engineers and are well versed with sensing mechanisms. we need some guidance on the project.

if you still suggest that it is beyond my scope i will consider it strongly .

My only concern is that you must gain a understanding of human physiology. I do not wish to discourage you, but you might want to read up on some biology and anatomy books.

Also how well do you grasp doppler principles. From the link you posted, you would need to build a 3D image of the proximal limb in question to locate the vein.

Sounds difficult.
 

yasinnajib

New Member
i have a fair understanding on doppler principles. and yes i do need a good understanding on human physiology and i will follow it up on some anatomy books.

3d image...? oh no ; i used that image to contradict that huge scary device posted earlier on the page that the device can be as such small and can be effective that way too. and to prove that ultrasonics were usable.

i have an another method in mind. its from a patent. i dont think it'd be right to post it here so i concocted a word file with some basic diagrams . how do you attach files here?

its based of creating a pressure gradient in the veins alone so that the veins stand out and can be measured with realtive ease.

its conceptual but do have a look at it. its the file named serendipity with a c.
 

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