Time for a new drill stand?

[Blueteeth]

Hi,

Analogue Robot's thread about the proxxon drill stand got me jealous. As I would need to buy the tool along with the stand thats a good £100 I do not have - especcially when I'm relatively happy with my dremel 300 (its not fantastic for PCB work). The stand I ahve right now is the one that most seemed to think was worth the money, the PZ541:

**broken link removed**

It was more expensive when I got it, but for 28 quid, as they're selling it for now, I'd recommend it for starting off.

Alas, theres wobble/play at the last half of the travel which I cannot seem to correct. It ticks me off a treat because I'm bad enough at drilling holes without having poor equipment give me an excuse. Before I started considering machining new parts for the rack'pinion mechanism, or perhaps bribing a few machinist friends to do it for me, I did a quick google for possible alternatives.

Ones that a) will fit my dremel 300, give or take, b) are < £60, and c) isn't the dremel workstation (I've heard/read/seen awful reviews on it.

Came across this:
**broken link removed**

Granted, its ebay, its from Taiwan, and the price looks too low for it to be good quality. However! The fact is uses not one, but three posts for travel makes it look very promising - that should take care of any wobble/play as it travels. The clamp that holds the drill looks relatively sturdy, and its entirely metal. So *assuming* the parts have been machined relatively accurately, the only trouble I can foresee is making sure my dremel is clamped in place, vertically, without play. Given how basic that clamp is, I reckon I could knock up my own 'cradle' mould, specifically for my 300 as an adapter, so it sits snug, and the clamp can properly hold it.

Any thoughts? Of course, I realise the chances are, no-one has tried one out, and if I ask the guy, he's bound to say its awesome. I can't help but think, even with some limitations its a very cheap and viable drill stand for possible modifications.

-BT

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Mmm!

That looks a bit better than Dremel's stand. The shafts are usually bought machined and so are the beearings, so all that has to happen is that the pressed bearings are parallel and that should not be hard.

The standard techniques for centering cause a problem with the 1/8" chuck and probably the clearances. A dial indicator would even be hard to mount.

It probably would not be too hard to find a couple of precision parts to fit the chuck and be .001" over on the whatever that sits on the base. A long piece of precision shafting and a hole in the base would go a long way. You just need say an oilite bearing or something that can sit on the bottom flat so you can run the quill through it without binding.

I'd lov to get an X-y table such as this one: https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_focus.php?Focus=X-Y+Tables

 

[Blueteeth]

Hi,

Cheers for the reply! Maaan, what with my searchs and now that link to an XY table... my wallet is getting nervous - you know how it is, tools/tech/machinary makes us guys behave like women in a shoe shop.. But to stay on track, this is purely for PCB drilling.

As for a dial indicator, I'm going to put off 'depth' measurement until I need it (which I'll regret doing but hey). My dremel doesn't actually have much wobble on the shaft, but the 'chuck' I got for it is awful. Collets work for the most part. I just need a stand thats going to make sure it doesn't budge as I lower it. And as a bonus, 'basic construciton' so I can add a bikes break cable to a foot pedal to lower it Maybe if the dremel annoys me too much, I'll attempt to make my own drill that runs off 12V. The control electronics is nothing, but the mechincal side of bushes, bearings, and shafts scares me.

I'll see what the guys says in his reply (assuming he speaks english). I reckon I can afford to gamble on it at that price.

In the meantime I found the problem with my PZ541. The metal thingie (so tecnhical...) that attaches to the rank in the rack and pinion system is slightly lose - the actual rack part doesn't budge during travel. It appears to be rivetted, perhaps even welded to it, I'll get a photo of it tomorrow. I'm thinking, drill through the rivets, thread the hole, countersink, and use good 'ol M4 bolts to secure it.

I'm not after bells and whistles, just about to start making another batch of PCB's and got cold shivers at the thought of drilling even just 200 holes with my setup. Like everyone, I just want life to be painless

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

The dial indicator isn't for depth. Typically you use a +- dial indicator and you attach it to the chuck some distance away like say a 4 cm circle. You then zero the indicator to the table and turn the chuck. Then you adjust out the variation.

 

[Blueteeth]

I think you've kind of lsot me there man, sorry. Is this for adjusting absolute 'centre' for the drill point?

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Yep. Adusts the angle of the quill. Picure a large mill. Now put a 0.5" collet in it. Now attach a precision rod. Now clamp an arm to the rod and finally a dial indicator to the arm.

If you turned on the mill (don't), the dial indicator would say sweep a large circle about the size of the bedways. You would then adjust the quill to make it perpendicular to the bed. You would rotate the chuck manually observing the dial indicator.

 

[Blueteeth]

Would you be able to give me some pointers on how to improve the accuracy/smoothness of my current setup if I posted a picture of the mechanism? I try my best to work things out by myself, and I have some basic idea's, but mechanics is not my forte by a long way, I have little experience in it.

It might help others who have this stand, I'm sure its capable of being a damn good cheap starter for those who just want to drill PCB's every so often - but I think it just needs a good setup/tweak From what I gather reading your posts, it really does seem like a good idea to 'calibrate' it in some way. I almost always put my broken carbide bits down to poor technique, and not quite gripping the PCB firm enough so it wanders half-way through a hole - for HSS I just let the PCB slide a little bit into place as the bit catches it, which probably creates some minor flexing that the HSS bits can take, but the carbides hate.

As for that ebay one, I bit the bullet and ordered it anyway. I guess I could always sell one of them as I only really need one, I tend to just make a few eurocard size panels at a time, with lots of < 2" x 2" PCB's. The seller said it was very basic, solid-all-metal, and fullly adjustable to tweak out any tolerances in manufacturing - ideal.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Go here: www.smallparts.com and search for: H1C-012

This is a 1/8" shaft collar.

Search for CGSX-02 which is precision stainless shafting. You could probably use a dowel pin or drill bit. The latter would be tough to cut.

There are lots of places that sell this kind of stuff.

If you go here https://sdp-si.com/eStore/Direct.asp?GroupID=172 and search for a 0.125 bore, you'll find some stuff that flatter and larger.

So, what I'm suggesting is to attach a piece of precision shafting to something flat, that would lay on the table. Attach it to the Dremel and stand the Dremel onto the made gizmo and then tighten things in place.

This could be used in another way (maybe another one of a different size) where once it is in place and you have a straight drill or just a piece of shafting attached to the Dremel. Straight drills are a misnomer.

Now have another flat thingy with a shaft pointing up. You can then place the Dremel's shaft near the shaft attached to the flat thingy and check the runout of the bit even when spinning.

i.e. a precision shaft attached to the Dremel and a precision shaft facing up parallel to the base.

So now you have an attaching gismo and a checking gizmo.

 

[Blueteeth]

Gizmo's are good!

I see what you're saying now. And yes, that would be a great way of checking just how 'vertical' this thing is. Of cousre, it looks fine by eye, but I saee that if the presses motion is perfectly vertical down, but the drill isn't, theres going to be issues as the drill should be perfectly on axis with the press's motion (whether that be perfectly vertical/perpendicular to the base, or at an angle),

Apologies for asking things over and over - sometimes it takes me a while to picture something from words as well as google terms I'm not used to, I get there in the end though!

Cheers man. Once the press arrives, I'll post a little review eh?

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

The CAD programs that are free are horrible. I loved Vectorworks and I could do drawings FAST. I can draw and scan easier than using CAD.

Hopefully you got the two ideas: One balances the Dremel on the end in which you drill, so if you can mange to place it flat on the table without being able to put a feeler gauge around it, it has to be flat. The other thing you can think of is a perpendicular post that you can move around the base.

The other way that a large mill can be done is with say this dial indicator: **broken link removed** It's made to rotate at some distance away from the center of the tool so you can see the runout.

Because of how much effort it was to re-align the mill, it wasn't tilted from vertical much. Jigs held the parts at 90 degrees, if needed.

 

[Mr RB]

I have a $20 all metal minature drill stand from the hardware store, the type that normally clamps onto an electric handdrill.

It had very smooth (and no slop) vertical movement as it slides down 20mm metal roundshafts.

For the drill I glued in a tiny 12v "supertool" type micro drill that has a perfect collet for 0.8mm 1.0m and 1.2mm drill bits. It is also nice and quiet, good whn my head is clos to it for 10 minutes drilling lots of tiny PCB holes!

The drill stand also has an adjustable top and bottom stop, so I set the top 1mm above the PCB (makes it easier to line the drill with the PCB) and the bottom stop just below the bottom of the pcb. That means the whole travel is about 4mm which is fast and pleasant to the hand.

 

[Blueteeth]

Righty, the drill press arrived, so I thought I would write a small review

Firstly, the base unit top, and drill holder are plastic.... which surprised me. That said, once constructed, tightened, its actually pretty damn solid, with no play left/right or tilt. The lever works fine, and the clamps work nicely to hold it steady on my desk. Its smaller than expected, but frankly I'm impressed for the price.

The bad points: only one so far. It cannot hold my dremel 300. The weight of the dremel can make it wobble slightly, and it will not sit vertically in the clamp (which is also plastic). To be fair to the press, NOTHING fits my dremel 300. So to turn this into a review of the dremel 300:

The 300 is heavy, the bearings are right so theres no play, and it has nice variable speed. But its loud, gets hot, heavy, and seems to be designed purely for hand held operation. Granted, the 'ergonomic rubber grip makes this confortable (I've spent several hours grinding at a time, no tired hands). But this is its weakness - I haven't seen any press/holder which can actually hold this thing at a correct angle without it wobbling. So anyone thinking of buying a dremel for PCB work - do NOT get the 300. You'll never find a way to hold it in place.

So, in *my* situation, I'll have to use my original press for the 300 (holds it solid, just not vertically....for drilling down), and buy a nice 'round' drill for the new press. I'm bloody annoyed, but not with the press (the new one is smaller, but solid, old one heavy duty, but wobbles), but with dremel. Looks good, bugger to clamp to anything.

Any idea's on making my own clamp for it?

 

[Blueteeth]

For the drill I glued in a tiny 12v "supertool" type micro drill that has a perfect collet for 0.8mm 1.0m and 1.2mm drill bits. It is also nice and quiet, good whn my head is clos to it for 10 minutes drilling lots of tiny PCB holes!

Ahh now you've got me thinking... maybe I should *attempt* to make my own drill for this new press. As I said before it can't hold the 300 (it clamps in tightly, but only at an angle, plus the weight bows the bracket..)... also as you mentioend noise, I HATE drilling 50+ holes with the constant noise. So, I guess I'm in need of a 12-24V job, with tight/accurate bearings, and a standard 'dremel screw' type thing for collets (all my drills/tools are based around using 3 sizes of collets).

I know that torque isn't really required for PCB's, but speed is, so 10k rpm+ is a must, I could knock up a PWM speed controller for it.
So, speed, low volume, and a 'round' shape. I googled for 12V motors with precision bearings and ways of adding a threaded adapter for it, came up nada

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

I found some applicable stuff early in the week, but I lost my reference, but here is a totally different idea.

get a 1/8 shaft.

Then a coupling such as this one: https://sdp-si.com/eStore/Direct.asp?GroupID=259

And a pillow block with a ball thrust bearing on the top.

Now we have a 1/8" hole for a shaft.

Now the problem is getting a Dremel end attached to this 1/8 hole. Ideas?

Might have to canabalize a Dremel or attachment, such as a right angle (maybe), to get the gizmo.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Here is a guy that made a clamp using plastic: https://www.lirtex.com/robotics/diy-cnc-machine/

 

[Mr RB]

Here's a picture of my ALL METAL drill press, it was about $19.95 I think on special at the hardware store. It is meant to take most electric handdrills.

**broken link removed**

You can see the little engraving drill I "glued" into the drillpress with window putty. It is secure but would be removable if needed.

The engraving tool was about $20 also, you can get them on ebay UK for $14 like this one for ?

**broken link removed**
**broken link removed**

Although mine came with a few collet sizes, you need the small collets to hold the tiny PCB drill bits.

For a speed controller I just use my variable DC bench PSU, it gives surprisingly good speed regulation, and I can "dial in" particular speeds that avoid the resonance of the cheap crappy little drill motor. It doesn't get that much use these days but it does work very well and was $40 well spent.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

This guy doesn't look too bad: https://www.amazon.com/Milescraft-1097-Stand-Drill-Rotary/dp/B0001GMENE

**broken link removed**

Notice is says it also fits Dremel 300 and 400.

 

[Blueteeth]

lol, crap, now it seems I have two presses, neither of which are the one from milescraft (looks ideal!). But your response to the dremel 300 holders gave me some ideas. I considered making a mould of the 300's body, as well as using a flat piece of metal that the neck of the drill can go through (and held on with the plastic collar that screws on the end of the dremel). With some holes drilled around the mould, and some bolts I guess I could adjust its angle to get it 'perfectly vertical' and then clamp this entire plastic/metal assembly into a press. Essentially, an adapter to make the outside round and vertical.

The alternative (thanks to keepitsimplestupid and MrRB) would be either making my own using a motor, shaft coupling, and a canniablised dremel attachment (like an old flexible shaft extention) for the threaded end for collets. Also might need good bearings...

The third option, which I looked into, was finding a cheap 'non-dremel' tool, with good RPM, relatively low noise, shaped better for a clamp to grip...this would sit permenantly in the new press. I looked into the Rotacraft R12 (**broken link removed**) but given the price.. might as well just start ALL over again with a new setup.

I'll post some pictures later today of what I have (not just so you guys can help me, but also if anyone else is in this position)

Thanks guys, I'll confess I'm pretty lost when it comes to mechanics, with basic understanding, but little experience.