Rant: Stupid "Smart TV" - must have video

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

So, why does a "smart Samsung 55" TV" need video in order to play sound?

I selected the NTSC input, and injected audio on one channel (I think) from a tone generator. I didn;t verify. No sound and the TV complained I didn;t select a "source".

 

[crutschow]

What does this "NTSC input" consist of?
A standard NTSC input does not have a separate audio input.

and injected audio on one channel (I think)

What does this channel input say?

 

[ChrisP58]

Does it have multiple inputs? RF, one or more HDMI in addition to the NTSC?

If so, then it likely defaults to a different source and won't switch to the NTSC unless it sees video there. And therefor won't connect to the related audio source.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

So, why does a "smart Samsung 55" TV" need video in order to play sound?

I selected the NTSC input, and injected audio on one channel (I think) from a tone generator. I didn;t verify. No sound and the TV complained I didn;t select a "source".

The clue is in the name 'television'

Any remotely 'modern' TV mutes the sound in the absence of signal - you have no signal, so the sound is muted, and the no signal display shown.

 

[alec_t]

Doesn't the TV have any inputs (e.g. RCA sockets) designated for audio only?

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Doesn't the TV have any inputs (e.g. RCA sockets) designated for audio only?

TV's don't have sockets for 'audio only' - as I've already explained, if there's no signal (i.e. video) the sound will normally be muted, because there's no need for it.

The same applied to HiFi VCR's as well - in order to allow then to record HiFi audio only they included a video sync generator, this allowed you to record helical audio using the generated sync to make everything work.

I'm presuming he's trying to use one of the three phono sockets (yellow, red and white), although a SCART socket would have the same effect.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

What does this "NTSC input" consist of?
A standard NTSC input does not have a separate audio input.

Sure it does. The output of a typical VCR has 3 RCA's; NTSC video, Left and Right Same for PAL. It can also produce modulated NTSC on channel 3 or channel 4 RF which was typical of stuff of the day.

I have a VCR, it listed for $1000.00 USD, that had a specific audio only record function. I think it;s either the JVC HRS800u or 7000u.

The TV calls that input AV. It then wants audio L audio R, NTSC video at least. Component video is also allowed.

No video, it complains that it wants to be connected to a source.

The ATSC specification does have an audio-only bit that can be set. There was an audio only station in my coverage area. Anothr ATSc tuner picked that up and played audio only. The TV would have a block that said
26
W???
Audio only

or some such nonsense. That would meander across the screen at various locations.

HDMI apparently left out audio only. I don't even think it can tell the receiver what kind of audio in embedded in the stream?

My CECB (Coupon Eligible something box), takes ATSC RF in and outputs channel 3 or 4 (switch), NTSC Video, L, R audio and I think S-video. When the box is off, RF is passed to the TV which supposedly received NTSC RF broadcasts. it can do a "scan and add" and, you can select non-scanned channels by entering their physical channel.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Does it have multiple inputs? RF, one or more HDMI in addition to the NTSC?

yes, multiple HDMI. The TV has one RF which will select NTSC, ATSC or cable channels, but they all have to be available when the system scans RF. I can't point an antenna to philadelphia with a delete all and scan and then point it to baltimore and do an "add and scan", The CECB can do that.

Some CECB's had the ability to use Diseq/C to turn an antenna.

If so, then it likely defaults to a different source and won't switch to the NTSC unless it sees video there. And therefor won't connect to the related audio source.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Doesn't the TV have any inputs (e.g. RCA sockets) designated for audio only?

There is a sub-mini jack that you plug in a "splitter" that splits it into RCA jacks for CVBS, Left and Right analog Audio.

I think there is another that splits to component video

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

yes, multiple HDMI. The TV has one RF which will select NTSC, ATSC or cable channels, but they all have to be available when the system scans RF. I can't point an antenna to philadelphia with a delete all and scan and then point it to baltimore and do an "add and scan", The CECB can do that.

Some CECB's had the ability to use Diseq/C to turn an antenna.

If so, then it likely defaults to a different source and won't switch to the NTSC unless it sees video there. And therefor won't connect to the related audio source.

Unless your sets work in a completely different (and stupid) way to the thousands of sets I've seen and worked on, I've already explained your issue (twice).

There's no 'default' you simply select AV, and the set switches to the AV input - BUT (for the third time!) you won't get any audio as it's muted in the absence of a video signal.

 

[schmitt trigger]

As Nigel mentioned, in the absence of a valid composite sync, the audio generally would be a loud wideband noise.
To prevent that, the audio is muted, and in many TVs, the video also defaults to a “screen saver” display. Usually a black field with the manufacturers logo bouncing around the screen.

 

[eTech]

So, why does a "smart Samsung 55" TV" need video in order to play sound?

The only way I can think of is that the TV thinks its set for audio via HDMI. If no video.....then no audio.

You might try using a different HDMI port. Usually, only a specific HDMI port supports audio over HDMI.

 

[shortbus=]

Your TV must be different than mine. Why would any one want to play audio on the crappy speakers they put in TV's now days?

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

The only way I can think of is that the TV thinks its set for audio via HDMI. If no video.....then no audio.

You might try using a different HDMI port. Usually, only a specific HDMI port supports audio over HDMI.

That's part of the problem. there is no such thing as audio HDMI. "They", the powers that be, want audio to take an optical path and audio seems to be messed up too.

Quote=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

Audio Path was required only if a lossless audio bitstream (such as Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA) was output.[148] Uncompressed LPCM audio, however, does not require a Protected Audio Path, and software programs such as PowerDVD and WinDVD can decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA and output it as LPCM.[148][155][156] A limitation is that if the computer does not implement a Protected Audio Path, the audio must be downsampled to 16-bit 48 kHz but can still output at up to 8 channels.[148] No graphic cards were released in 2008 that implemented the Protected Audio Path.[148]

In December 2010, it was announced that several computer vendors and display makers including Intel, AMD, Dell, Lenovo, Samsung, and LG would stop using LVDS (actually, FPD-Link) from 2013 and legacy DVI and VGA connectors from 2015, replacing them with DisplayPort and HDMI.[168][169]

End quote.

The Samsung TV has CVBS or composite video and audio. I selected AV. Fed it audio only. TV wasn;t hungry.

Your TV must be different than mine. Why would any one want to play audio on the crappy speakers they put in TV's now days?

You hit a nerve. So why do they sell sound bars or Bluetooth audio systems etc.?

Optical seems to be a mess too.

Mom (94) and myself are too the point, that audio is fatiqueing to listen to. Most of the time, it sounds horrible. I'm talking ATSC TV and Youtube on the TV using the youtube app.

What I want and why?

I've given up on good audio. The TV is just plain "Stupid".


Mom's pretty much confined to a hospital bed. Occasionally gets in a wheelchair. It's been like this and worse for about 3 years,
She doesn't want to know how to use a computer. She has never had a cell phone. A "TV remote control" especially Samsungs's "mart remote" is hard for her. Options on a cordless phone like an address book, forget it. It's difficult for her to see. Alexa or Siri is not off the table.

Better lighting, is definately on the table. e.g. 6000 Lumen dimmable LED.

She likes radio talk shows. AM just doesn't work in the house. FM needs an external antenna. Both are difficult to arrange.
The TV browser won't support Shoutcast, but even that's crappy lately. A web browser won;t support the radio station's stream.

What I thought I wanted:
1. The ability modulate an ATSC modulator with upconverted AC-3 audio and make it available on the TV. Who knows Plex, Roku or whatever. Analog Audio over Ethernet.

I have Ethernet infrastructure issues to deal with and I've been unable to devote time to get the modulator to work.
Converting L/R audio to upconverted AC-3 over HDMI seems impossible.

2. The is the one I'm persuing now. Play L/R audio as an input to the TV.

I have, but not hooked up, a dual RS232 and IR controlled Legrand AM/FM tuner. This has an active antenna.

Did some searching and came up with,

and

The Barix instreamer.

So, i guess I could use a pair of powered speakers, but I'd LIKE to use the TV.

I think if I use this device, I could stream to a computer if i want. I might be able to stream from her favorite radio station.
Changing a station might not be necessary initially

The Tuner can be located in the basement, the active antenna in the attic, the Ethernet switch in the basement. I should be able to IR repeat the IR remote control over Ethernet and change the station blindly.

So, I have to fake the TV to be able to play audio.

So, now let's say, I find a way to generate a PC VGA black raster and now convert that to HDMI and add L/R audio to that.
Hopefully, the TV will be happy, but probably not. The gizmo that generates the black raster would have to power up in black raster.

I'd almost like to have two streamers and one receiver. I'd stream both tuners and have the receiver at the TV (Tuner #1) . The second tuner #2, would say be available to the program VLC and possibly IPTV.

However, I'd like to take this one step further and say have a Rasberry PI which I think I have a use for, to interrogate the tuner and display e.g.
FM 101.1
W???
Dreams

at random locations on the screen. This might be able to be accomplished with a VT100 emulation to VGA. Use direct cursur addressing of the vt100 to pick the locations.

 

[eTech]

That's part of the problem. there is no such thing as audio HDMI. "They", the powers that be, want audio to take an optical path and audio seems to be messed up too.

huh?
My TV and computer support audio (AC3) over hdmi and I'm currently using it.
I guess i'm confused...

 

[eTech]

Don't know if your interested but you can take standard L/R audio line and feed it to a Blue Tooth audio transmitter.
Then you can use it with any device that has a blue tooth audio receive capability. If the device doesn't have bluetooth receiver, you can buy a bluetooth audio receiver (very inexpensive) and plug it into the L/R audio line input jacks.

I've done this with my PA system. It has L/R audio line jacks but no bluetooth. I play music from my IPhone thru the PA system.

 

[ChrisP58]

Going back to the no audio unless NTSC video problem. You can make a sync generator that might be able to trick the TV into letting the audio through.

Here is an article for doing it with a PIC and a few passives. http://www.hpcc.ecs.soton.ac.uk/dan/pic/video_PIC.htm

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Going back to the no audio unless NTSC video problem. You can make a sync generator that might be able to trick the TV into letting the audio through.

Here is an article for doing it with a PIC and a few passives. http://www.hpcc.ecs.soton.ac.uk/dan/pic/video_PIC.htm

To confirm the principle you could connect the video up from an old VCR, or anything with a composite video output.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

huh?
My TV and computer support audio (AC3) over hdmi and I'm currently using it.
I guess i'm confused...

OK, can you create HDMI AC-3 audio from L/R analog audio?

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

OK, can you create HDMI AC-3 audio from L/R analog audio?

Even if you could, how would it help?.

There's nothing 'stupid' about the TV, it's a TV - so it needs a video signal to work, that's how it's designed, and have been for MANY years (long before LCD's).