press n peel troubles

[vixo]

I just discovered that press n peel will not work with my printer, a brother-2030. Is this because of the toner? Does anyone know what kind of cheap laser printers work well with press n peel?

philip

 

[3v0]

I use Pulsar rather then P&P.

It is said that the Brother does not work because of the toner it uses.

 

[Shax]

I've always found that the image left by PnP is very ragged, and the resolution is shyte..

I've moved over to photosensitive boards, and a home brew UV led lightbox.

 

[3v0]

As I said I have not used P&P. With the Pulsar paper you image is almost exactly what the printer prints.

 

[HarveyH42]

HP usually has a cheap laser for under/around $100, check their online store. They also have refurbished printers cheap too. I got my 1020 for $120, free shipping right to my door. Toner cartridge is around $70, but lasts a long time. Have looked at refilling or alternate brands.

I use the Pulsar paper, which I'll cut each sheet into quarters, since I do mostly small boards, and the printer doesn't do paper widths under 3.5 inches (or around there). Thin traces come out solid and even, really thick traces or large areas are a little speckled, but still work. There is some TFT films and foils you can put on the toner that pretty much fixes this, but I usually skip that step. And lastly, if you figure on doing lots of boards (usually do 2-3 a month), suggest a heat laminator over the clothes iron. I got my little 4" model surplus under $25, and worth ever penny. Only failures were do to fingerprints on the copper (rounded areas on the edges), but it's been a while.

 

[3v0]

I agree with Harvey and use a HP 1020.

Some place I read the you should avoid refilled and non name brand toner cartridges. Toner is plastic that melts. It was said that the off brand toner uses less plastic and makes up the difference with some sort of filler that does not fuse.

My printing method is a bit different.

1. Print the foil pattern on regular paper.
2. Cut a bit of transfer paper that is just larger then the dimension outline of the board.
3. Tape the transfer paper to the regular paper so it covers the printed image. Just one strip of tape along the top edge.
4. Run the paper through the printer again.

I make a lot of small boards and with this method you can get many of from s single sheet of transfer paper. But it does take a bit more time.

 

[HarveyH42]

I agree with Harvey and use a HP 1020.

Some place I read the you should avoid refilled and non name brand toner cartridges. Toner is plastic that melts. It was said that the off brand toner uses less plastic and makes up the difference with some sort of filler that does not fuse.

I think that's in the HP manual, which would be expected... I've only had to replace the cartridge once, in over two years. And I use the laser printer for most everything.

I know different toners have different melt temperatures from reading about making PCBs this way. Also there different grain sizes. Would think it more costly and difficult to add something to the plastic, just to save on a little material. Perhaps its reclaimed plastic, or low grade, instead of virgin. Not sure of the price difference, but doubt it's great enough to get me to try it. Makes good sense for a busy office, which might go through several per month, just on memos that get shreaded before the end of the day (tree killing bastards )...

 

[Dean Huster]

Then again, back in the mid-1990s, they were saying that refilled toner cartidges did the best job with the toner transfer method. I've always done just fine with original HP toner and printers, using the III, IV and V as well as bigger and newer machines.

I've been away from boarding making for a few years. the Pulsar paper is new to me. Descriptions and sources, anyone?

Dean

 

[3v0]

The Pulsar paper is more like cardboard. It is coated with the starch used to make tapioca pudding.

The toner is printed/fused to the starch. When paper board combo is placed in water the starch becomes very slick and slippery. The paper floats off the board if not taped down. As I said earlier the image printed by the laser printer is what you end up with on the board. None of the toner remains with the paper.

You can read all about it a https://www.pulsarProFx.com

You can buy it through Digikey, Mouser or from the makers website.

EDIT: In 1992 and 1993 it was written up in many of the electronics hobby rags including Circuit Cellar, Radio Electronics, and Nuts and Volts. Over a dozen articles were published.

 

[Dean Huster]

Ah. There was a product like that that pre-dated the PnP and was supposedly useful for making decals for front panels. I hated the stuff since all I ever seemed to end up with was alphabet soup in the water.

Dean

 

[3v0]

Ah. There was a product like that that pre-dated the PnP and was supposedly useful for making decals for front panels. I hated the stuff since all I ever seemed to end up with was alphabet soup in the water.
Dean

If the toner is fused to the copper that can not happen.

EDIT: Unless you are talking about making decals. In that case I suggest you check the pulsar site. The people there have been working on improving the process.

 

[HerbertMunch]

...
I've moved over to photosensitive boards, and a home brew UV led lightbox.

Same here, the detail that can be achieved with the photographic method is amazing.

Im totally sick of all the missing traces that occur when ironing on toner.

With the photoresist boards, you just setup the light and the mask, and then you can just leave it for however long your light takes to expose the board.

I find the p&p too expensive, and i feel guilty about using it!

Exposing boards takes away the hit and miss element that toner method has associated with it.

 

[HarveyH42]

Same here, the detail that can be achieved with the photographic method is amazing.

Im totally sick of all the missing traces that occur when ironing on toner.

With the photoresist boards, you just setup the light and the mask, and then you can just leave it for however long your light takes to expose the board.

I find the p&p too expensive, and i feel guilty about using it!

Exposing boards takes away the hit and miss element that toner method has associated with it.

Ironing really killed the toner transfer for me, never got the hang of it. But I was trying various paper types. I found a laminator for $25, and got much better results, but the paper fibers left behind were still a hassle, sometimes an issue. Bought some Pulsar paper, and very rarely get bad boards. I don't know about Press-N-Peel, but Pulsar is $15/10 sheets. Don't think it's anymore expensive then doing the photo method.

I'll agree that photo etching will give the best results, but you need to keep the chemicals fresh and stored properly. Requires a little more time and attention. You can't beat it for multiple boards, only have to print the artwork one time.

Really comes down to why you are making boards at home in the first place. My projects are usually something new each time, maybe do 2 or so of the same board, and move on to something else. PCBs are easier and quicker to solder and wire then perfboard, look nicer, and much easier to rework. If I were to get into production work, I'd probably do the photo method. Most likely I'd send off the artwork and have them done, since I really hate drilling holes...

 

[Hero999]

I like the photographic method too.

I also like the transfer method but I use magazine paper instead of the expensive proprietary papers.

The method I use depends on the board I'm doing; for simple designs I use the transfer process and for detailed designs I use the photographic process.

The photographic process is definitely the easiest but the toner transfer process is cheaper providing you just use magazine paper.

 

[3v0]

There are several methods that can be used to make PCB boards at home and it is possible to fail with all of them.

About the worst results with spray on photo resist (over 20 years ago). Always close never right.

To a great degree our failures are due to attempts to save money.

Toner transfer.

The system I use works. I have an HP1020 printer with OEM cartridge, pulsar paper, and a GBC H210 laminator. My etchant is sodium persulphate.

If you use these it will work. Each time you make a sub you increase the chance of it not working.

Most printers and laminators will work. Old HP laserjets are great and often free. If you have doubts about a printer see if they will let you print a PCB or two in the store (doubtful), or ask here or over at the pulsar website. I only have tried two laminators. The one that did not work is a harbor freight $15 unit. Pulsar is currently selling a $70 laminator that is guarenteed to work. You may be able to find the same laminator for less.

You can use paper other then pulsar but the results may not be as good and it may not work at all. I suggest that you spend the $15 for 10 sheets of paper. Once you get the process working switch back to mystery paper to save 2 cents a square inch. If you ever have a problem with Pulsar paper you can call Pulsar and talk to the inventor/CBO Frank Miller. He knows his product and loves to talk about it.

 

[HerbertMunch]

I like the photographic method too.
The method I use depends on the board I'm doing; for simple designs I use the transfer process and for detailed designs I use the photographic process.

that sounds about right to me, but id also use it if was doing multiple copies.

3v0,
a guarenteed laminator? sounds good. When i get my next student loan money, perhaps i will buy it.

With regards to the positive 20 spray, well ive got a cannister of it so i might as well experiment.

If i dry it correctly, do you think that my problem with the developer eating away everything would be solved?

thanks.
chris

 

[Hero999]

I've never bothered with the spray. I always buy pre-sensitised boards for the photo method.

 

[3v0]

that sounds about right to me, but id also use it if was doing multiple copies.

3v0,
a guarenteed laminator? sounds good. When i get my next student loan money, perhaps i will buy it.

...
chris

Although I have not tried it there is a method where you put a dowel under the board and roll it while you iron. Sort of a poor man's laminator. See Pulsar site for info.

Pulsar Paper 3 cents per square inch
Surplus PCB  3 cents per square inch
-----------------------------------------
Total        6 cents per square inch

There is the up front cost of the printer and laminator but they last a long time and the printer can be used as a printer.

I am nearly at the end of my first pack of Pulsar paper. My total cost for the paper, printer, and laminator was about $250. I paid too much for my laminator.

There are people doing small production runs with the pulsar system. I only know what I read about it on their site.

There are several things that can be wrong with your photo process. I assume you searched the net for info and how-to's. Try if you have not seen it. I did not read it extensively but it looks like the author is on the right track and uses the same photo resist.
I liked this part.

Now it is time to Hoover out the shack with all the doors and windows closed. Seriously! I am not kidding, any traces of dust for the next stage will cause you to waste the expensive spray laquer we use. I ALWAYS Hoover the workshop, then I Hoover the inside of an old light-tight shoebox, paying attention to all the carboard seams and corners, even the lid. By this time the washed board should be completely dry. Lay the board inside the shoebox with the copper side up then continue with the hoover to make sure the board is free from dust.

Since it is a postive system the exposed area is removed. That should rule out under exposure. But maybe you are overdeveloping an under exposed board and it all comes off at once.

 

[HerbertMunch]

hi,
thanks for your advice.

I came across that site. I dont know how he achieves such good results!
i must be really bad at spraying.

Chris