OH Man!

[BrownOut]

While working on my Borg-Warner T19 transmission today, I dropped a dang-gum "E" clip into it, and it fell to the bottom of the case. I fished around with a magnet, but couldn't get it out. At first I was worried that it would get jammed on the gears and destroy the gears, but after thinking about it, I think it should lie harmlessly in the transmission case and not cause a problem. The only way I can see it working its way into the gears is if I roll my truck over, and if so, I'll have bigger problems to worry about

 

[Sceadwian]

You have no idea how strong the fluid currents in the transmission case are or where they're even located the people that engineered the transmission probably don't =P, let alone what a good solid bump might do. Could end up being nothing, could end up totaling the transmission, not a good thing to gamble on. Hopefully you didn't magnetize any of the gears so that they collect metal particulates worse over time =>

 

[bryan1]

Although the E-clip is only small, and the lubrication in the gearbox will be splash fed a light weight clip could easily get caught in the gears or even worse the bearings. Just sayin 'she'll be right mate' is asking for that elusive 'Murphy' to pop his head up and get you when your 150 miles out in the desert. I repair industrial gearbox's for a living and I do know 1 small object stuck in a bearing can cause havock. Also you will find the E-clip is hardened and if it does go thru a gearset it will more than likely score the gear teeth and cause a fracture in the teeth and when you need to power you'll hear a nice loud BANG as the gears decide to part company.

Go fishing and find it is my recommendation.

Cheers Bryan

 

[BrownOut]

I think I'll have to turn it over and shake it to get the dang thing out.

 

[JimB]

Is there a drain hole in the bottom of the gearbox, so that the oil can be changed?

I would assume that such a drain hole would be at the lowest point in the 'box.
Why not go fishing through the drain hole?
If the E clip has fallen all the way through, it would be easier to get at it from the bottom rather than trying to get at it past all the internals of the gearbox.

JimB

 

[BrownOut]

Ok you guys have convinced (scared) me. Here's the plan. The drain hole is at the front of the transmission, but I dropped the clip at the back. So, I jack up the back to get things flowing towards the front. Drain the oil, and then tap on the case, or try blowing air through the case to move the clip towards the front. Actually, there is an inspection plate near the drain hole, on the other side of the case. I'll try to force the clip towards the plate so I can see and reach it.

But not today; it's raining.

 

[Sceadwian]

Just a suggestion, because the fluid's not going to come out of the transmission very quickly the clip may not move from the fluid flow alone, drain about 2/3rds of the fluid and (I'm not sure how practical this is) shake it up real good while the rest is coming out it may dislodge the clip. The biggest problem I can see is that those clips are small and light and transmission fluid is relative viscous so it's going to tend to 'stick' to any flat surface it can find like a suction cup if it's not surrounded by fluid so it may be tricky to get it out, then again it may just fly right on out.

 

[BrownOut]

Fortunately, I can remove the shifter and have access to pretty much the whole transmission. If the clip doesn't move wiht the oil, I can try to blow some air through it and see if I can blow it out. I think I can get a long adaptor for my blow gun that allows me to direct the air at the bottom of the case.

 

[Sceadwian]

I work at a machine shop, the guys there use thin walled aluminum tubing and bend it to their desired shape, and then use standard hydraulic fittings to fit them to the tip of air guns for whatever shape they need to specific jobs, they do it with oil lines too because every job needs oil in slightly different spots.

 

[BrownOut]

Well today I was able to fish out the clip. Plan "A", which was to blow it out with an air gun with a long attachment didn't work worth a damn. Plan "B", which was to remove the access cover on the front side of the box, and fish a magnet with a flexible handle (HFT to the rescue!) worked like a charm. I shagged it on the thrid attempt. The gearbox looks to be in surprisingly good condition, considering it's 26 years old, and has logged over 100K miles. I'm glad to have this done; I dont want to hose up my truck. It might be rusty (I can see the ground through my floorboard) but it's all mine, works like a big dog, and with a 6.9L diesel, BW 4-speed transmission and 10" rear end, it can tow anything

 

[JimB]

For those of us not familiar with the terminology, what is a

10" rear end

??
I am guessing it has to do with the differential assembly.

JimB

 

[BrownOut]

Right, I should have wrote 10" differential. It's actually 10.25", and is one of the largest differentials offered for a consumer vehicle, at least till 1984, the year it was built.

 

[gerty]

10" differential

I believe it refers to the diameter of the ring gear.

 

[Sceadwian]

Is using a magnet inside a transmission a good idea? They're typically case hardened steels, and the magnet grabbers are all alnico or ceramic super magnets nowdays, strong enough to magnetize heat treated materials..
That machine shop that I work for makes a little fluid distribution cap that's used in Borg Warner transmissions, and they went through the roof when a magnet I was using to pull a few lose parts out of a sand blast tumbler cabinet accidentally magnetized a few pieces. Aside from the obvious bulk handling problems of having parts sticking together from magnetization; in a transmission it will attract wear particles onto the magnetized portion, this again could be nothing, or kill the transmission over time.

I was really shocked when I found out and played around with it a bit, modern high Gauss magnets really do a job on hardend steels. I'm guessing the heat treating process depending on what it is dramatically increased the retentivity. So far from what I've seen it's case hardened steels that get hit worst. But that's just from one case.

 

[BrownOut]

I'm not worried. The magent is tiny, and that's what it's made for.

 

[HiTech]

It works like a big dog, and with a 6.9L diesel, BW 4-speed transmission and 10" rear end, it can tow anything

By todays pick-up truck diesel standards that International motor's h.p. and torque specs are pale: 315 ft.lbs. at 1400rpm & 170hp. My Dodge V10 8L (500c.i.) develops 320 hp and 460 ft./lbs. grant it though at 2100 rpm.

From the size of the differential's ring gear you may have a Dana 60 rear axle. If it has a fill plug and 10 bolts holding the cover its a Dana 60. If it has a rounded cover with no plug and 12 bolts on the cover it's a Sterling. Some trucks came with the Dana 70. A 10.25" ring gear pretty much indicates a Sterling axle whereas the Dana 70 incorporates a 10.5" ring gear. I have the Dana 70HD which is 35 spline and 10,000lb rating. Some of those Sterling axles of that vintage were semi-floaters, despite if the truck was a F250 or F350 and some were full floaters. I cannot imagine a 1-ton with a semi-float!! That seems counterproductive to what the truck is designed to do!

 

[Sceadwian]

The physical size is irrelevant, it's the strength of the magnet that's the problem, modern permanent magnets are incredibly strong. Feel free to ignore the possibility of the problem, I'm just letting you know of the possibility. Mind you that transmission makers intentionally place a magnet inside the oil/hydraulic pan in order to try to collect the tiny wear particles, if you brushed up against a gear with your magnetic tool there's a modest chance you magnetized a portion of it, which means it'll collect those wear particles just like the intentional magnet in the pan.

Mind you this is not a theory, or my opinion, I have DIRECTLY observed this, simple physical contact with a strong enough magnet WILL magnetize case hardened materials instantly.

 

[HiTech]

Maybe so, but remember that its a weak magnetic field imposed on a gear tooth (or teeth) and the constant hard contact of them meshing practically negates the weak magnetic field over a short time. I wouldn't lose sleep over it at this point. The real damaging culprit has been removed and his transmission will likely continue to work fine for a long time.

 

[BrownOut]

By todays pick-up truck diesel standards that International motor's h.p. and torque specs are pale: 315 ft.lbs. at 1400rpm & 170hp. My Dodge V10 8L (500c.i.) develops 320 hp and 460 ft./lbs. grant it though at 2100 rpm.

From the size of the differential's ring gear you may have a Dana 60 rear axle. If it has a fill plug and 10 bolts holding the cover its a Dana 60. If it has a rounded cover with no plug and 12 bolts on the cover it's a Sterling. Some trucks came with the Dana 70. A 10.25" ring gear pretty much indicates a Sterling axle whereas the Dana 70 incorporates a 10.5" ring gear. I have the Dana 70HD which is 35 spline and 10,000lb rating. Some of those Sterling axles of that vintage were semi-floaters, despite if the truck was a F250 or F350 and some were full floaters. I cannot imagine a 1-ton with a semi-float!! That seems counterproductive to what the truck is designed to do!

It's a Sterling, and full-floating. The engine is bullet proof, and the specs are excellent considering the truck is 26 years old. A couple years ago, I pulled a 20' trailer loaded to about 8' high with a friend's house hold goods from Alabama to Nevada. Over the great divide, the motor had a "bend, don't break" attitude. It took the hills with the heavy load, and just kept humming along. Sure, I could go out and pay thousands of dollars for incrementally more power, but with those specs and gearing, there is nothing I can't do with the one that's already paid for. Economizing, making my own repairs and doing my own restorations allows me to have many more toys than I would otherwise.

https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/tractor-swap.105083/#post858500

 

[HiTech]

I wonder why Intnl. didn't install a turbo on that motor back then? That would've made a real performance gain.... even GM back then couldn't cut the muster with their garbage diesel engine. Is your model year truck the one with the front pivoting axle w/ coils? I was never fond of that design albeit though a novel approach to IFS design to smooth the ride quality. I heard those front ends liked to eat steering parts on a regular basis? Dunno if that's true or not. My brother-in-law had issues with his. While I'm a proponent of solid axles, a very heavy duty well designed IFS really is the way to go anymore these days. Take the military Hummers for example--- SOLID, RESPONSIVE, and plenty of clearance! I think my next truck is gonna have IFS... less issues overall with them and the ride is a bit nicer.