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More elegant solution?

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PMB

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I'm a retired electronics engineer and keep my hand in by maintaining a small electronics workshop with a basic 'store cupboard' of components and the basic range of test equipment, power supplies, 'scopes, sig gens and so on.

I was recently asked to design and build an unusual circuit and though I've done it, and it works, I just get the feeling that there's a more elegant way to do it than my solution, so I thought I'd sign up here and pop the question.

The request was for a time delayed switch. The user wanted to be able to set a delay time between 10 seconds and one minute, press a momentary button switch and after the set delay time had elapsed, have a normally open output switch close for no more than half a second then open again, after which the circuit must return rapidly to it's quiescent state and be ready for another push button trigger within a few seconds. The unit had to be self contained, robust, easily transportable and its output switch had to be rated at 5A minimum.

The easy bit was the time delay, and in this case I used an LM741 in comparator mode with a simple RC network to the non inverting input to provide the variable time delay and with its output switching a transistor to energise a 6v/70R relay with 7A contacts which provided the output the user required. The tricky bit was to have that relay energise for only ½ a second, then get the circuit returned to its quiescent state with the LM741 non inverting input back to low within 'a few seconds'

Without going into detail I managed this with a second DPDT relay which latches the momentary button switch when energised and discharges the LM741 timing capacitor when deenergised. This second relay is held energised for the half second required by another RC network. This works OK and I can get it all in a small ABS box with a PP9 battery but as I say, I just have a feeling that there's a more elegant way to do it than messing around with a second relay and RC network - but I'm darned if can come up with one !! So before I go ahead and etch the board and build it for the user, (it's on the breadboard at the moment), I thought I'd see if anyone had any ideas on how else this requirement might be met.

Thanks for your interest.
 
This is the 21st century, a much more elegant (and simple) solution would be to use a PIC, a small 8 pin one (or even 6 pin SM) would do the job easily, smaller faster and better.
 
An alternative way is to use a 556 dual timer IC or two single 555 timer IC's.
 
Yes, I played with PICs for a while after I retired, but this old dog isn't too good at learning new tricks I'm afraid, and is kind of comfortable with discrete components. Mind you it's just as well there are some of us discrete component dinosaurs around in this 21st century. I had a local fisherman knock on my door recently and present me with his marine radar system, radome, display, the lot saying it had 'stopped working'. It was at least 12 years old, and after chizelling ½lb of salt out of the radome I found the old style single-sided PCBs crammed with discrete components and not an IC in sight - managed to fix it. I also note with some satisfaction that the latest fashion is for hot valve stereo amps at upwards of £1K apiece...hmmm.

Anyway thanks very much for your reply, perhaps I should have another go at PICs, even though I didn't do too well with them last time.
 
hi PMB,
The 555 and 556 timers have been around a long time.
They are cheap and easy to use.

Whats your location.?
 
Welcome to ETO PMB. It is always nice to see another retired engineer in our ranks.

Using a micro controller would not only be elegant but quite possibly the lowest cost solution if you do not count the development tools. But for people who do not program it is outside of what they can do.

If you do not know how to program it is never to late put a new tool in your box.

EDIT: Just read your 2nd post. You will find a lot of people here who know pics and are willing to help.
 
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I'm with Ericgibbs, a 556 will accomplish what you want simply, elegantly and will be very inexpensive.
 
Well I tried the 555 solution first and ended up with exactly the same problem, namely, how to achive the 0.5 second output with an instant reversion to quiescent state. You still have to use an RC netwrok for the time delay and I tried monostable and bistable configurations, but always came back to that same problem of that 0.5 second output. I have only a few 555s in the drawer, but several dozen 741s, so I used them to do the switching.
 
Well I tried the 555 solution first and ended up with exactly the same problem, namely, how to achive the 0.5 second output with an instant reversion to quiescent state. You still have to use an RC netwrok for the time delay and I tried monostable and bistable configurations, but always came back to that same problem of that 0.5 second output. I have only a few 555s in the drawer, but several dozen 741s, so I used them to do the switching.

That's why people suggested a 556, which is two 555's in one larger package - a reasonable 30+ year old solution to the problem.
 
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Well I tried the 555 solution first and ended up with exactly the same problem, namely, how to achive the 0.5 second output with an instant reversion to quiescent state.
Hi. As the other fellows have said, the use of two 555s is an easy & elegant way to do it. Two cascaded monostable timers, the 10-60second time triggering the 0.5second timer. Have a look at the attached cct if it's not making sense.
 

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OK I'm very willing to accept that I'm missing something, but if you use an RC network for the variable delay, then whether you're switching with 555s, 556s or 741s, you're still left witht he problem of resetting that pin 2 trigger voltage level back to quiescent state, normally low, immediately after the output pulse. I want to push the start switch, then after the delay and output switch I want to push the start switch again immediately and that's where I'm having to bring in the second relay.
 
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you're still left witht he problem of resetting that pin 2 trigger voltage level back to quiescent state, normally low, immediately after the output pulse.
Pin 2 is not the thing stopping the timer from being ready for the next pulse - it's the charge on the cap on pins 6&7. Pin 2 of the left timer goes to its 'quiescent'/inactive state - which is high - as soon the switch is released. Pin 2 of the right timer goes to its inactive state ~0.1second (due to r3, c3) after the left timer has finished timing the 10-60second delay.

When the timers have finished doing their designated delay (10-60sec or 0.5sec), each discharges its timing capacitor quickly through pin 7, making it ready for the next cycle.
 
Yes, sorry dougy, I meant pins 6/7 of the 555. I've got pin 2 on my brain because it's the non inverting input of the 741s I've been playing with.

Anyway, I tried that with a couple of 555s - just about the same as your sketch - and it didn't work, probably becasue my mind was on the 741/relay solution since I've got drawers full of both!! I obviously pegged something up wrong on the breadboard, and I'll do it again now. It's a much nicer solution without the relays.

So in anticipation that I'll concentrate a bit better with the 555s this time, thanks for your help.
 
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