Making a large battery

[large_ghostman]

Hi, I am making a large battery from used ones, well partly used ones. Alkaline D cell types mainly. I am recovering the zinc and melting it down to reform and trying to find a chemical way to separate the MNO from the other manganese compounds made when a battery starts to be used up (yeah I know good luck with that one!).

Its a project purely for the hell of doing it and wanting to learn more about battery chemistry, end goal will be to try and make a lead cell battery using plates etc from dead ones. I will update progress as I go, first I have some 600+ batteries to take apart! If nothing else the carbon rods will be useful as will whatever zinc remains in them.

 

[dr pepper]

Sounds like a mucky 'orrible job ghostie, when I was your age I pulled the carbon rods out of batteries to make an arc furnace, it worked incredibly well.
You can get blocks of zinc as sacrificial anodes for boats, but it'll b e a lot cheaper in dead batteries.
Make sure you dispose of the trash responsibly.

 

[large_ghostman]

Have you seen the price of the boat anodes!! I might start making them lol.

I am working on a chemical process with a chemist from SA, its simple in design and not greatly efficient, but we hope to turn the black gunk back into MNO2.
Apart from my little spin off project we are looking for ways to recycle the black mix back into MNO2 so the only wastes in theory should be the paper/steel and waste solutions, most of the waste solution we can recover alot of the chemicals from.
I know it seems pointless but sometimes I learn most from this kind of thing, also those graphite rods sell really well cleaned up! very useful and saves my MMO electrodes for special electrolysis, you can get the MMO coated Tungsten sheets easy from the states but they seem hard to find in the UK.
My set has Rhodium in the mix and makes great chlorates/perchlorates (not that I would make those ).

I also want to mess with salt bridges and split cells, I have a few ideas I want to try out so I can make a decent split cell. I have 10 old car batteries awaiting some looking at, I read a paper a few weeks ago that has given me an idea for a lead acid battery.

The other new project I need more info on before I mention it or John will be all over me in a flash lol, I need to double check the paper but if its correct then a home made hydrogen fuel cell might be possible. As soon as I know if the patent and paper are legit I will get his opinion on it, handy having a Chemist on an electronics forum!

Building my new fume cabinet next week, I need a bigger one and want a bit more height to it. I couldnt afford a new one so decided to custom make one.

Oh and the project I did last week I might post up with pics, I made a tiny solar panel with microscope slides, its pathetic in output but interesting to do.

 

[jpanhalt]

You may find this article interesting: https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijce/2010/659434/ (search term = separating manganese and zinc oxides).

When you say "MNO" , I presume you mean Mn(II) oxide. The material in batteries is Mn(IV) oxide. While Mn(IV) salts are usually insoluble in water, Mn(II) salts are often soluble. Thus, you may find this reaction helpful:

MnO2 + SO2 → MnSO4

I have used that reaction many times to clean up the products form a permanganate oxidation. Wikipedia or Google are then good resources for converting the sulfate back to Mn(IV)O2.

John

 

[Les Jones]

Hi LG,
Be VERY carfull melting zinc as the fumes are toxic. Only do it outside and stay upwind of the crucible. If possible use an air fed face mask.

Les.

 

[large_ghostman]

You may find this article interesting: https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijce/2010/659434/ (search term = separating manganese and zinc oxides).

When you say "MNO" , I presume you mean Mn(II) oxide. The material in batteries is Mn(IV) oxide. While Mn(IV) salts are usually insoluble in water, Mn(II) salts are often soluble. Thus, you may find this reaction helpful:

MnO2 + SO2 → MnSO4

I have used that reaction many times to clean up the products form a permanganate oxidation. Wikipedia or Google are then good resources for converting the sulfate back to Mn(IV)O2.

John

Interesting article John thanks, yes I meant MNO2. I have found conflicting information on what is actually inside a dead battery, but the main goal is to try and end up with Mn(IV) oxide OR something else useful!!

I have got sloppy with using MNO as its used as an abbreviation on a not particularly science based forum, its more a forum for 'RED NECK' recycling. Not that, that excuses sloppiness of course. I will have a good read of the article.
Thanks

 

[dr pepper]

Certain people are sensitive to zinc, welders moan was someting that people were off sick with where I used to work, they welded exhaust pipes, some were galvanized.

I put togther a fume cabinet in the lab at work, it passed inspection to my surprise, the whole thing cost about 20 quid, but I allready had some schott glass.

 

[large_ghostman]

I am likely to melt the Zinc in a fume hood, I cant stand the smell of it! Interesting paper using citric acid and sulphuric acid, its got me thinking of a few other things. I normally weld outside if its not raining, I got welders sunburn last year so make sure I cover up now

 

[iouae]

Its a project purely for the hell of doing it and wanting to learn more about battery chemistry, end goal will be to try and make a lead cell battery using plates etc from dead ones..

I used to have a 12V car battery made from 6 separate plastic compartments, each 2V cell being jumpered externally together.
I don't know why more batteries are not made this way, since often the battery gets one dead cell, and you have to junk the whole battery.
With separate 2V cells, one could just replace the one dead cell. A tiny bit more plastic for each cell, to save a lot of lead. And if the V dropped with age, maybe one could add a 7th cell. Also you can get any V from 2-12V by tapping off connections from mid battery, something one cannot do with a car battery.

 

[dr pepper]

Welcome to the forum iou.

I remember when you took your car battery to have one of its cells replaced, they were just glued in with nasty black goo, the geyser used to warm it up with a gas torch, I can see that going wrong more than once.

 

[large_ghostman]

I need to go and dig, but the center tap way isnt apparently the best way. I have seen on a professional setup with multi batteries (like huge fork lift type batteries) where they had a fairly strange way of wiring them all up, I did ask why not center tap but the answer at the time was way above me. As this was roughly two years ago I will try and find it online and see if I can get what they were saying.
I guess there is more profit to make a battery to last 2 years then recycle 90% of it to sell back to you!

As a side note I got a temporary fume cupboard set up and started distilling off the sulphuric acid (I have sulphuric acid so not too sure why I was doing this), it has a 430 cfm fan in a 2m x 1,5m x 1.5m cupboard. It was enough for nitric acid distillation but isnt good enough for used battery acid, so I stopped as soon as I could smell fumes. Considering the lead compounds in the acid mix I decided to stop and wait until my hood can clear it.

430 cfm should have been enough??? I might have saturated the scrubber, I wont know until I take the scrubber off and look at it (deep joy) that will be done in a full face mask and airline

 

[iouae]

One has to be so careful working with chemicals because it is a case of what you don't know could kill you.
Like you know that if you add sulphuric acid to water its OK if you do it slowly and stirring.
But do it the other way round, it will boil, blow out of the container and possibly into your eyes.

I like taking microwave ovens apart for their timing circuits, magnets etc.
Then one day I read that in the ceramic surrounding the magnetron there sometimes is beryllium oxide, which if it crumbles and you breath it in, could kill you slowly and unpleasantly.

Sounds like you do take care, but are there not safer hobbies you might be interested in, like paragliding.

 

[dr pepper]

Even 'electronic' things like breathing solder smoke, handling 320v switching supply circuits, rf radiation are all be bad for you, and now you cant eat a bacon sandwich without it killing you, knowing the risks and your limits is what matters.

I have maintained forklifts and material handling machines ghostie, I cant remember seeing a battery tap other than for when the traction motor was a diffrent voltage to the steering pump, all the later ones just have a 2 pole anderson connector, well 2 poles - and + and a airpipe, later ones use compressed air to cool the battery so it can be charged quicker.

 

[Tony Stewart]

430 cfm should have been enough??? I might have saturated the scrubber, I wont know until I take the scrubber off and look at it (deep joy) that will be done in a full face mask and airline

A good fume hood is based on linear air speed over the working surface and not the CFM.
So having a plenum or spoiler or air dam or fume hood to reduce the air flow area and get close the emission surface to increase the air flow speed is your goal.

1m/s is a decent air speed to prevent leakage and a smoke test with a candle or cigarette. is all you need to test.

I've reclaimed many Motive power batteries for Jet tractors using Solartech's ( sold business) pulse charger and others have as well from de-sulphation.

 

[large_ghostman]

The tapping thing was just from a site for alternative off grid living, I cant remember the whys etc but it was a really strange way to wire it up. i am still searching! My fume hood has baffles and I was using ammonia and HCl to generate 'smoke', it needs tweaking a bit but I will get there.
The scrubber has had it already so will replace with the straight carbon one.
I sometimes make 'other' things that require a good fume cupboard and a full face mask (just in case).

 

[jpanhalt]

1) If your fume hood is vented outside. No problem. If it has a HEPA filter, I would not use it for filtering large amounts of that smoke, or any other smoke. Janitors at work discovered they could smoke in front of a fume hood and not be discovered for smoking "on the job." It didn't work; although, we never caught the actual culprit..

2)I think the reason to not put a tap on a battery like described is that it discharges half the battery more then the other half. That is not good for batteries in series. I have seen 12V batteries set up so one could use them in parallel or series with a switch.

John

 

[dr pepper]

A little smps converter is what you need ghostie, with a uc3842 or mc34063 or something and you can have any voltage you want, and battery drain will be properly even.
JP's right te danger with taps is that you might flatten some of the batts, then when you load the whole lot theres a risk that the more discharged ones will be reversed in polarity, you guys probably unerstand more than m about what happens in the cells, but I know its certainly not good.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

It's called "face velocity" for a reason. There will be a "working height" of the pull down window. Above that height, you don't get enough face velocity. When the window is fully closed, you draw air from along the front side. Some of the drawn is also used to vent the under hood storage.

We converted all of our hoods to use "outside air". The idea was to have an outside air source at the top of the door that would basically be laminar flow, so baffles channeled that air. Using the outside air, conserved the heated/cooled inside air. On the roof, there had to be a separation distance and I think a difference in height, so the sources don;t intermix. All of the hoods were generator backed up. Since it was expensive to outfit each hood with a velocity meter, a simple differential pressure meter with manual pointers were used as a crude "quality indicator". As the belt slips, you loose face velocity.

There four systems which needed a much more sophisticed monitoring. A velocity probe was placed in the duct, in a place where there is likely laminar flow. e.g. Center and a few diameters away from a bend.

In two of these systems. the velocity could be seen on an LED display. Therefore, we had warning of when the probes had to be cleaned and/or when the belt had to be replaced AND the alarm was latched.

Some cost-cutting bozos in another lab had a velocity switch (same probe design) and an "interlock style" alarm system. In their system, a velocity blip would just shut them down and the system appeared normal again. Both were very bad ideas. They were also interlocked to one of my systems.

Later, when I had to do this again, the manufacturer simplified the interface. I can't actually remember how it was interfaced, but the sensor and the display fit into an EMT elbow.

You also need the display to find the right rotation and inserting for maximum velocity after cleaning.

The bozo's also powered the velocity detector from an equipment rack. I powered mine via a wall-mounted enclosure. During another upgrade, the "building wiring" went to an enclosure and then out to a 37 pin CPC connector AND the velocity alarm was powered from the enclosure. So, a "huge" enclosure had a bunch of DIN terminals to the CPC connector and a piece of 2"+ conduit with a J-box above the ceiling with individual strain reliefs, one power supply and a light. At least it was "better".

 

[large_ghostman]

Thanks guys, for clarity I will add some detail. Its part of a real hood and part DIY, although it vents outside I had a HEPA filter that came with part of the hood and this was installed. It didnt work so well so now I have a plain carbon on, not really needed but then again I dont like to vent toxins if I can help it.

The face velocity is fine with the hood shut (4/5th shut) but the baffles need a tweak, its safe for what I need at the moment but I want something that will be overkill rather than something that just about does the job. The ammonia and HCl is harmless (I think Belgium even use it in confectionery!!), I will update the baffles next week and redirect some of the flow. The smoke pellets I used to start with (plumbers ones) were cleared too quickly and I missed a back curl that develops when I have a full reflux set up going on, so a few tweaks needed.
I am safe as far as you can be as I wear full face and airline even for pretty low grade stuff, mainly because I am aware that at 15 I have a very long time to build up exposure and give myself sensitivity problems later on.

KISS
I origanaly got a Bio hood from a old company that was supposed to be a level 2 Bio hood, you should have seen the bodgery!! H&S these days would have com busted instantaneously on seeing it lol.

Thanks for all the info, its really helpful. The battery is a long way from being finished because at the moment I am trying different things out, the chemistry side of batteries can get really interesting and some of the more exotic types are seriously cleaver!
I will keep you updated although not much will get done this week, my next invention will be a washing powder to deal with dry battery crud! Man that stuff finds a way to coat everything in a 5 mile radius lol.

 

[dr pepper]

Kiss what velocity switches and pressure monitors do you use, I mention this as the last insurance inspection we had they suggested we fit them, as is there is no monitoring, we only use meths in the cabinet so theres nothing particularly dangerous.

Ghostie, your right black crud and heat sink grease has an effect, it gets everywhere but where its sposed to be.