Looking for Motion Sensor Light + "Soft On/Off" for Kitchen

[Billy22Bob]

I see the kitchen may be the only place to use this as the other rooms - you sit still too long and the lights go off....happens at work.

Anyway I'm looking for;
1. Motion Sensor with day/night photo cell for 300W (1.5Amp) in the kitchen .....easy enough - links please if you know where.
2. If you turn it on...would love it to ramp up over 2seconds and down when the motion sensor turns it off (over 2 seconds).
3. Whoohaa....dreaming...you could set it so it runs down to a specified level say 25% brightness when main switch on and no motion detected....and you move and it brightens up - "full off" by main switch on the wall okay.

been scanning alibaba/china for something

 

[Billy22Bob]

What about a large Cap???

There are 6x50W 240V halogens on this particular circuit, so someone could almost help me work out the Farads to come up with a 1sec TC and try a capacitor or am I off track here.

Halogens do have a variable resistance as they heat up but would matter too much?
Then for ideas 1 and 2 all I would need is the night/day motion sensor upstream and in series with the cap.

b22b

 

[ericgibbs]

There are 6x50W 240V halogens on this particular circuit, so someone could almost help me work out the Farads to come up with a 1sec TC and try a capacitor or am I off track here.

Halogens do have a variable resistance as they heat up but would matter too much?
Then for ideas 1 and 2 all I would need is the night/day motion sensor upstream and in series with the cap.

b22b

hi,
240V local mains is usually AC.!!

 

[Billy22Bob]

I've got an idea.....

See attached.

The attached schem would work as such;
A - When power is initially switched on and no motion present....dimmer circuit would be path of least resistance and hence lamps would soft on up to "dim - stand by" to the level set by the dimmer - preferably low.
B - When motion is detected, the motion sensor would close and path of least resistance would cause lights to "soft up" via the cap to full power.
C - When motion is no longer detected, the reverse would occur and the cap discharge to a "soft down" situation set by the dimmer.
D - When finished in the kitchen, the switch can be turned off.

Couple of things I'm not sure of though;

1. The single tranny cap arrangement - there would be 25Amps at play here which I assume is a lot for a "little" cap. Might be better to run 6x12VDC tranny's and 6 caps at 4 Amps. Comments appreciated.

2. Motion detectors usually have a timer start when motion is detected. Some then count down to an off condition despite any new movement that may be detected - hence you have to wave your arms around every time to get it on again. I'd prefer the counter to restart as long as there is any "new" movement detected. Not sure what the terminology is for deseminating each type of motion detector. Help appreciated so I can specify/seach for the correct one.

3. Not sure if a leading or trailing edge dimmer would be best. I suspect for electronic tranny's a trailing and for iron core trannys....a leading. Not sure how either of these would behave with an RC circuit on the end - I'm thinking an iron core DC tranny at this stage. Not sure if you can get electronic DC trannys anyways.

Dreaming - I would prefer an electronic solution if there are any tech heads out there.....there may be some added functionality available from this solution where a 555 Timer could turn the whole system off from the "dim - standby" mode after say 5minutes of stillness (timer req.) and then soft on to full power if new motion is detected (no timer required).

PS - I have noticed with trailing edge dimmer on a 12V system the soft on is already present. This happens with my under bench lighting. Not sure this is useful though. It is still sharp off.

 

[ronv]

How about this? Kind of like your dome light. Turn on the switch - fades up. Stays that way for 5 minutes and fades off if no motion is detected for the 5 minutes. Fades up if motion is detected again before switch is turned off. I think you could do it with one of those little PIR sensors and PWM.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Velleman has a number of dimmers available. One such item is this one: Velleman nv

Some replacement lights do that by themselves. I have a large flood that nearly takes 5-6 minutes to get to full brightness in the bathroom. I've been in a restroom that was fitted with a motion sensor wall switch and basically did the same when you combine it wit h the wierd bulbs.

 

[Billy22Bob]

Thanks for this guys.....

KISS - Looked at the VElleman unit...neat. Maybe a little over the top for what I need it to do.
Ronv - hmmmm... no offence, but may prefer comments on current arrangement schem. Could almost do it apart from the 3 issues raised....

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See schem attached below in original post.....
1. The single tranny cap arrangement - there would be 25Amps at play here which I assume is a lot for a "little" cap. Might be better to run 6x12VDC tranny's and 6 caps at 4 Amps. Comments appreciated.

2. Motion detectors usually have a timer start when motion is detected. Some then count down to an off condition despite any new movement that may be detected - hence you have to wave your arms around every time to get it on again. I'd prefer the counter to restart as long as there is any "new" movement detected. Not sure what the terminology is for deseminating each type of motion detector. Help appreciated so I can specify/seach for the correct one.

3. Not sure if a leading or trailing edge dimmer would be best. I suspect for electronic tranny's a trailing and for iron core trannys....a leading. Not sure how either of these would behave with an RC circuit on the end - I'm thinking an iron core DC tranny at this stage. Not sure if you can get electronic DC trannys anyways.
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[ronv]

No problem. Here are some of the problems I see with the current method.
See schem attached below in original post.....
1. The single tranny cap arrangement - there would be 25Amps at play here which I assume is a lot for a "little" cap. Might be better to run 6x12VDC tranny's and 6 caps at 4 Amps. Comments appreciated.
As shown the lamp would start bright and go off. The problem is that T=RC so even with a single lamp the light would go off in .012 seconds.

2. Motion detectors usually have a timer start when motion is detected. Some then count down to an off condition despite any new movement that may be detected - hence you have to wave your arms around every time to get it on again. I'd prefer the counter to restart as long as there is any "new" movement detected. Not sure what the terminology is for deseminating each type of motion detector. Help appreciated so I can specify/seach for the correct one.
That is the kind I have seen as well. Not sure why, but they also need a few seconds to "calibrate" the room.

3. Not sure if a leading or trailing edge dimmer would be best. I suspect for electronic tranny's a trailing and for iron core trannys....a leading. Not sure how either of these would behave with an RC circuit on the end - I'm thinking an iron core DC tranny at this stage. Not sure if you can get electronic DC trannys anyways.
You can always rectify the transformer but I'm not sure how it will react with the dimmer.

 

[Billy22Bob]

So I've done some testing.....looking at some sort of PCB circuit now....

I've constructed the circuit using 12V electronic downlights, a trailing edge dimmer and 360deg ceiling motion sensor (see attached). I've only tested 1 downlight setup to date, but I'm not convinced this is the best solution.
A couple of issues from testing;
1. Motion sensor clicks....I have found an alternative sensor which has a relay arrangement.....so this issue may be closed.
2. When the sensor goes open circuit, the light dims but goes fractionally bleow the dim setting on the dimmer and then rises again to the set dimmer level.

What I'm looking for now is an alternative PCB/diy type cirucit I may be able to construct to act as the dimmer.

Example (see attached schematic)
Wife'y walks into kitchen and nothing happens, goes back to main light switch and switches it "on" the PCB/diy circuit forces the lights to be dimmed to a preset level.

Wifey moves into kitchen, and the sensor picks up movement and goes closed circuit.
The PCB/diy circuit ramps up the lights to full brightness over 1 second. (Somehow storing 1seconds worth of energy for later* (approx. 360mWHr)

Wifey works away in the kitchen and the motion sensor keeps registering motion so it stays on and lights stay on.

Wifey leaves kitchen and then after set time duration the sensor goes open circuit.
PCB/diy circuit acknolwedges the open circuit and dims to set value over 1 second utilising the stored energy from * for that 1 second ramp down.

Lights stay at dimmed level until power has been cut by main switch.
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Any ideas?
I was hoping to use an old motion sensor light with lux/sensitivity pots on it (no duration though). I could possibly forego the duration time and connect this to the other circuit with a relay of some sort.

Addendum...I found this over on a nother site....must be commercially available units out there as well.....
**broken link removed**

 

[Billy22Bob]

Just an Update.....

The 6 x 240V GU10 50W globes were all changed out fro $14 soft start tranny 12V types
a $15 cheappie Crompton wall sensor and HPM trailing edge dimmer put in parallel and tested.

Seemed to work okay although the majority of the time when the lights are dimmed and you walk in the kitchen, the sensor ciruit takes over and there is not much ramp up. I guess just the standard 340ms soft start. Problem was trying to get the dim down lower than 50% amps. The dimming circuit would seem to go into a cyclic dim and the lights would fade off at any setting <50% current (which is still faily bright). I was thinking maybe there needs to be at least one 240V-50W blb in the circuit for stability.

The trailing edge dimmer was replaced with the old leading edge dimmer and this worked a treat and we could dim the lights down to 25% current. Although we dont know what damage(if any) this may cause to the downstream tranny's - you're supposed to use trailing edge dimmers for these lights.

So we could dim the lights in the "standby state" to 25% power draw which was just right, but the "on state" (through the sensor circuit ) may need to be trimmed (very bright) and maybe it could be soft started.
As a final measure, whilst retaining the leading edge dimmer on the "standby circuit", the trailing edge dimmer was place in series downstream of the sensor. Testing is still underway, but looks promising.

 

[Billy22Bob]

Alternate "automatic lamp dimmer" Silicon Chip Mag 2005.....

Got a copy of the "automatic lamp dimmer circuit" from the local library yesterday.

Main items are a proprietary PIC chip which does "the lot", a triac and some caps/resistors for control. Looks quite simple (thanks to the chip - wonderful things arent they) but its only rated for 150W max, so would have to have someone help me re-engineer it for 400W.

I would assume this would be a simple upsize on the misc. components. Also I wouldnt want the IR chip for remote control - rather utilise some alternate switching - eg: when you activate the wall plate switch, this simply signals the circuit to shutdown (on its 2-12second ramp) and then it does the main switching at the end and vice a versa. Will keep you posted.

Might buy a couple fo these PIC chips if I place an order, as I could use it in several places.....for effect.

 

[Brevor]

so would have to have someone help me re-engineer it for 400W.

Often all thats required is to replace the triac with one that can handle more current. And of course making sure it has a large enough heat sink.

 

[Billy22Bob]

here's a shot of the dimmer circuit.....

I've boxed in the IR remote IC2 components as they wouldnt be needed.

Also a Link to the triac..specs...
https://www.electro-tech-online.com/custompdfs/2011/01/BT137FS1.pdf

At its present rating I'm not sure that this is the current limiting component.
Will research further however comments appreciated.

b22b

PS - here's a circuit description of the main components.....

 

[ronv]

Did you get this going?

 

[Billy22Bob]

Not yet....

Macro solution - dimmers and soft starters etc...working but only on the 350ms-500ms startup/shut.

Micro - I'm a bit of a novice - so still researching.

Found some cheap PIC chips etc....but need to correctly size the Triac.
I've also contacted Silicon chip for some help if they are offering.

All assistance - greatly appreciated.
Spec is for a;
-400W unit as opposed to the 150W they specify for this circuit. I presume the Triac and heat sink will have to upsized.
-Dim up and dim down rates to be set by ..... (not sure) at 3 seconds and activated by main wall plate switch.
-Minimum dim to be set at a chopped 240V to 60V_RMS
-Maximum brightness to be set at a chopped 240V to 200V_RMS.

All these settings were fed into the PIC via IC2 which was the IR_Remote Control - I would have to replace this with alternate "hard wired" circuits and the wall switch.
I think also - this circuit may be defined as a "leading edge dimmer" and as such "may" cause problems with my electronic transformer 12V lights. That having been said - the current "macro system" I'm running/testing is more stable with the present "leading edge dimmer". I found that with the "trailing edge dimmer" in parallel with the sensor switch, the lights setup and spiraled to total fade out every time I tried to dim below 50% current (unstable).

b22b