Linear power supply with audio-grade caps is any better than similar high-quality ones?

[ducnguyen2k10]

I had a big online fight with this guy making so-called “hi-end” linear power supply.
I said the capacitors he’s using in his LPS should not provide better DC output than the same parameter capacitors!
I challenged him to show the oscilioscope of his LPS DC output measurement but he tried to avoid.
I don’t see the neccesity to use audio-grade capacitors in the LPS.
Additionally, this guy and some of his friends argued that LPS is essential and should improve SQ when using to power ethernet switch, and DC-powered equipments in the chain of audio system.
Does anyone here has experience and knowleage to prove me wrong!?

 

[Diver300]

Don't get into arguments with audiophiles, you won't win. For many, there is no such thing as proof.

Often the assertions are based on something that happened a few times, a long time ago. Of course there have been noisy switch mode power supplies, and I'm sure that some amplifier somewhere was objectively improved by swapping the switch mode power supply for a linear one.

My point is that one event like that can lead to many people rejecting switch mode power supplies on principal decades later.

A long time ago, in a discussion online, I was told that air doesn't cool down when energy is extracted from it with a turbine, but that air only cools down when expanded through a throttle. The spurious arguments to prove their point were just strange. For instance, an air powered hand tool couldn't have a cold exhaust as it would freeze the user's hand. That's incorrect, as it would also be an argument against the hot exhausts existing on a petrol chainsaw. The fact is that both tools have the exhaust streams arranged to be away from the user's hands.

At least audiophiles don't threaten to kill you because you're happy to listen to music on a phone. Others who run in the face of the facts can be more violent.

 

[ducnguyen2k10]

Don't get into arguments with audiophiles, you won't win. For many, there is no such thing as proof.

Often the assertions are based on something that happened a few times, a long time ago. Of course there have been noisy switch mode power supplies, and I'm sure that some amplifier somewhere was objectively improved by swapping the switch mode power supply for a linear one.

My point is that one event like that can lead to many people rejecting switch mode power supplies on principal decades later.

A long time ago, in a discussion online, I was told that air doesn't cool down when energy is extracted from it with a turbine, but that air only cools down when expanded through a throttle. The spurious arguments to prove their point were just strange. For instance, an air powered hand tool couldn't have a cold exhaust as it would freeze the user's hand. That's incorrect, as it would also be an argument against the hot exhausts existing on a petrol chainsaw. The fact is that both tools have the exhaust streams arranged to be away from the user's hands.

At least audiophiles don't threaten to kill you because you're happy to listen to music on a phone. Others who run in the face of the facts can be more violent.

The answer i’m looking for is scientific based. Such as if you have any oscilioscope showing there is no differences between so-call high-end LPS and high-quality one. Thank you for your reply, anyway!

 

[rjenkinsgb]

The critical factors are ESR at the frequency / frequencies involved.

Without the actual (rather than claimed) capacitor specifications or actual equipment to test, you cannot compare them.

Assuming the same total capacitor values, the one with lower ESR should give lower ripple at that point in the circuit. Whether that is relevant or not depends on the rest of the circuit and the overall application.


For a typical Ethernet switch using an external DC supply - and having its own internal regulation - the external supply quality is irrelevant, as long as the voltage remains in the permitted range!

A faulty or grey market switch-mode PSU may cause interference - but nothing that complies with CE standards and is properly installed should.

I have zero tolerance for audiophile fanatics.
A simple argument is to look what equipment recording studios use - there will be no loony cost "audiophile" stuff, [unless they are paid to use it], just good quality general "professional grade" equipment, connectors and cables etc.

And a lot of gear aimed at audiophiles is no more than smoke and mirrors, a lot of waffle and meaningless claims on something that's probably no better than good domestic or commercial gear, or even not as good, with some I've looked at (eg. a £1200 headphone DAC that is lower quality and higher noise than the headphone DAC section of a £120 Focusrite Scarlett audio interface).

And one of the things I find most amusing is that most audiophile products use such as phono (RCA) connectors and unbalanced signals, so are inherently susceptible to ground noise and hum (and they then pay insane prices for magic cables to supposedly reduce the effects), rather than just using balanced line signal connections in the first place, like even low cost professional gear, which eliminate such problems!

 

[AnalogKid]

I don’t see the neccesity to use audio-grade capacitors in the LPS.
Additionally, this guy and some of his friends argued that LPS is essential and should improve SQ when using to power ethernet switch, ...

The series resistance and series inductance of a large value electrolytic capacitor *can* affect how an amplifier handles high-frequency transients, like the crack of a cannon in the 1818 Overture. However, a lot of other things have to be very good, and some other things not good enough, for the effect to be audible.

As for affecting sound quality in a low-power digital signal system such as anything Ethernet - no. Just plain N.O. By design, an Ethernet signal is an on-demand, low voltage, digital data stream with absolutely z.e.r.o transients. Trivially simple power source decoupling at the pins of each IC is all it takes. The reason all of today's Ethernet hardware power supplies are the switching type is that it doesn't matter. In the past they used linear supplies, but *only* because back then they were cheaper.

ak

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

The answer i’m looking for is scientific based. Such as if you have any oscilioscope showing there is no differences between so-call high-end LPS and high-quality one. Thank you for your reply, anyway!

It wouldn't prove anything - you can't see microscopic differences on an oscilloscope even if they exist - you can't see less than 5-10% distortion on a scope, you can hear far lower.

As others have said, the claim is ludicrous, don't get involved arguing with crazy people.

 

[ducnguyen2k10]

It wouldn't prove anything - you can't see microscopic differences on an oscilloscope even if they exist - you can't see less than 5-10% distortion on a scope, you can hear far lower.

As others have said, the claim is ludicrous, don't get involved arguing with crazy people.

So to conclude, there shouldn’t be any difference at all and in case there is difference, we cannot hear it, right?

 

[ronsimpson]

So to conclude, there shouldn’t be any difference at all and in case there is difference, we cannot hear it, right?

Don't get into arguments with audiophiles, you won't win.

Audio Gurus often think:
Audio amplifiers with brushed aluminum knobs sound better than ones with plastic knobs.
Gold contacts and gold plated PCBs sound better.
Audio gear that looks like money will sound better.
The warm glow of tubes sounds better, even if the distortion is much worse.
etcetera

There are people that make a good living off of "if it cost more it sound better".

Again: "Don't get into arguments with audiophiles"

 

[ducnguyen2k10]

Audio Gurus often think:
Audio amplifiers with brushed aluminum knobs sound better than ones with plastic knobs.
Gold contacts and gold plated PCBs sound better.
Audio gear that looks like money will sound better.
The warm glow of tubes sounds better, even if the distortion is much worse.
etcetera

There are people that make a good living off of "if it cost more it sound better".

Again: "Don't get into arguments with audiophiles"

I know! That’s the reason I’m seeking for answers and objective explaination to bust their claims.

 

[ronsimpson]

to bust their claims.

Religion, much like audio; you can not convince someone that their Holy Book is not true while your Holy Book is true. A belief, that has been in someone's head for a lifetime can not be changed by facts. Certainly not over the internet.

 

[rjenkinsgb]

There are people that make a good living off of "if it cost more it sound better".

A fool and their money are easily parted, as the saying goes!

Places that target people who can afford to pay £1000 for each connecting cable etc. are just working on that principle and the buyers are happy due to the placebo effect it gives them.

The parts I detest are the magazines that support totally false claims - like having a comparative review of different digital optical cables & the reviewers claiming the sound is different (and better with the crazy price ones, of course, that the magazine gets paid most to advertise).

And even more so, "normal" TV & HiFi shops selling generic consumer gear, that try to convince customers that eg. like insisting that the little Blu-Ray surround player they just paid £100 for won't work properly unless they buy another £150 worth of special magic cables to connect it up with - which are functionally no better at all than the most basic ones costing peanuts.

[For anyone not familiar with digital audio transfer - it's a file or list of numbers; there is no subtle distortion or change in character possible. Claiming different digital link cables change the sound is as insane as claiming the internal style of text in a word document will change with the make of drive it's stored on. ]

 

[Buk]

Blu-Ray

digital

You mean you don't have a Platinum coated, Beryllium turntable mounted on a 50 kilo granite block floating in Mercury, in your triple isolated, hermetically sealed, Faraday-caged, totally analogue listening room?

Analogue is the new digital you know

 

[rjenkinsgb]

You mean you don't have a Platinum coated, Beryllium turntable mounted on a 50 kilo granite block floating in Mercury, in your triple isolated, hermetically sealed, Faraday-caged, totally analogue listening room?

Not unless someone wants to pay me appropriate amounts to create such a setup!!

I will happily sell people bare boards or built RIAA preamps for a good practical system, at sensible prices, though:

K1450 RIAA Preamp PCB

Robert Jenkins site & technology blog

robert-jenkins.co.uk

I wanted a decent preamp to connect my old JVC turntable to an audio interface, to transfer some old albums for a friend, so did some PCBs for that design as I could not find anyone selling suitable boards.
I though I may as well also make them available to anyone else interested.

I suspect they are in practice better than a lot of "Audiophile" grade blingy gear, but they are likely just far too cheap for the loonies to consider them "good". (Should I do a gold and platinum plated version, with a few zeros added on the price? )

Other than that, I consider my old LPs, singles and the turntable (and the cassette and minidisc decks etc) just memorabilia, rather than any practical use, and stick with nice clean low noise digital audio!

 

[AnalogKid]

Analogue is the new digital you know

! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

 

[Buk]

Not unless someone wants to pay me appropriate amounts to create such a setup!!

Oh well. If you're gonna critique that which you've never experienced ...

 

[AnalogKid]

I have some grounded-in-reality experience in the golden-eared audio sphere, including psycho-acoustics research both in and out of soundproof and anechoic chambers. Two things:

1. Don't confuse what you can hear with what you can measure.

2. Don't confuse what you can measure with what you can hear.

3. Don't confuse what you can measure or hear with what you like.

ak

 

[Buk]

1. Don't confuse what you can hear with what you can measure.

2. Don't confuse what you can measure with what you can hear.

I'd add:

3. Don't confuse what you think you can detect when A/B testing in a sound-proofed, acoustically dead, isolated audio lab or booth whilst playing pure tone audio samples with anything that will make the slightest difference to your enjoyment when listening to music -- be it anything from Hall of the Mountain King recorded live at the Albert Hall; to Hall of the Mountain Grill, whether the studio version or live recording, done on 70s equipment -- at home, with the neighbour's dog barking, the missus hoovering upstairs, and a plane passing overhead.

 

[unclejed613]

the secret to a good power supply for audio use (especially in amplifiers) is low output impedance. any good low ESR caps should do for this. audiophiles spend way too much for the parts that go into their gear, and so to them it hurts their feelings when you come along and have just as good results with inexpensive components. i used to frequent a forum a few years back that had an audiophile section. the money these people spent on snake oil and mumbo-jumbo is simply ridiculous. they will spend extra money for "boutique" capacitors (like 10-20 times more) that perform exactly the same as a $10 Nichicon cap. they will do the internal wiring of their projects with pure silver wire because many of them believe a piece of copper wire can be a source of distortion (they think the atomic structure of copper acts like a series of point-contact diodes). i've seen "audiophile" HDMI cables sell for $1000 for a 3 ft cable. yet the differences in audio quality between decent consumer grade audio gear and "audiophile" gear are not measurable.

i havent seen AG weigh in on this subject yet. he usually has very few kind words for "audiophools"... and i don't blame him a bit.... a lot of unscrupulous people make a ton of money selling their snake oil to audiophiles.

 

[ducnguyen2k10]

the secret to a good power supply for audio use (especially in amplifiers) is low output impedance. any good low ESR caps should do for this. audiophiles spend way too much for the parts that go into their gear, and so to them it hurts their feelings when you come along and have just as good results with inexpensive components. i used to frequent a forum a few years back that had an audiophile section. the money these people spent on snake oil and mumbo-jumbo is simply ridiculous. they will spend extra money for "boutique" capacitors (like 10-20 times more) that perform exactly the same as a $10 Nichicon cap. they will do the internal wiring of their projects with pure silver wire because many of them believe a piece of copper wire can be a source of distortion (they think the atomic structure of copper acts like a series of point-contact diodes). i've seen "audiophile" HDMI cables sell for $1000 for a 3 ft cable. yet the differences in audio quality between decent consumer grade audio gear and "audiophile" gear are not measurable.

i havent seen AG weigh in on this subject yet. he usually has very few kind words for "audiophools"... and i don't blame him a bit.... a lot of unscrupulous people make a ton of money selling their snake oil to audiophiles.

Exactly! Yet they still refused to belive in any kind of measurement! Even companys selling snake-oil stuffs educate their customers that measurement is not everything and trust in their ears.
Cannot reason with that such statements!

 

[Buk]

Audiophiles aren't the only phools in this world.

Just look around here for the silly prices people will pay for sidecutters.