Lexmark printers for transparencies?

[ChildOfVision]

Hi to all!

Sorry if I jumped in a wrong thread!
I wonder if anybody has experiences with Lexmark E332N laser printer? I've heard somewhere (and, of course, forgot where) that it makes great prints on transparencies (for PCB making), without stacking two films to get more opaque templates? Is it true? Furthermore, this printer (also E230 and E232) has "straight-through" path for paper, foils or whatever! I am a bit in a hurry, because I have (relatively) good offer (abt. 50€) for E332N with new OPC and at 70% of 6000 toner capacity. I also have similar offer for a "Canon LBP 2900" which works (proven) great with original toner, but it has only "face-down" output tray, so harder/thicker media "breaks" two times by 90°!

To make my decision even harder, I heard "all the best" about HP-printers, but there is so many types of them (Canon's too!), I can't buy every printer to try it, or ask people to do experiments for me, before buying!

So, any help is highly appreciated!
Sorry again for my bad English!

TIA!
Child

 

[ChildOfVision]

Nobody? OK, I will reply to myself! What about HP LaserJet 1320 ? I've heard all the best about it, but what do you think/know (people who own it) - does it make dark, opaque toner on transparencies for photo-method AND/OR thick and even layer of toner for toner transfer? I can get this printer cheaply, but don't know is it suitable for my needs (I don't need auto-duplexing, but I like (and need) straight-through path for paper or other "problematic" media!)...

TIA!
Child

 

[jpanhalt]

I don't think the lack of response you have experienced is due to lack of interest or desire to respond. You are asking about a very specific printer. Of the population that uses that printer, a very small fraction does the photoresist method.

I am part of the few that use photoresist for making PCB's. I used to use an HP inkjet and professional-artist quality transparency material. That gave very dense positive transparencies, and I was able to get fine lines and excellent resolution in my PCB's. The problem was that I only used that printer for making PCB's. All of the rest of my printing was done with an HP 4100 series LaserJet. The inkjet cartridges dried out long before they were exhausted. That added appreciably to the cost.

So, I worked out a way to use the LaserJet printer. That printer is designed for small to medium size offices for document printing. In practical terms, one cannot control the density of print when making transparencies.

The solution I found for that problem was to go over the laser transparency with a dry-erase marker (aka white board marker). Black works best. The small particles of pigment from the marker fill the gaps between toner particles and give a very dense transparency. Marker on clear areas is easily wiped off. I have had no trouble with resolution or making fine traces with this method.

The method I developed is described in my blog here: https://www.electro-tech-online.com/blog-entries/improved-laserjet-transparencies-for-pcb.213/

Regards, John

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

I did a number of board using a translucent polyester paper that happened to be "lying around" using a LaserJet 4/4m+. You really don't want to use transparency film.

I own an HP P2015dn and I've used thick media (cold laminating film) a few times. It's possible, but tricky yo use the straighter paper path. The printer usually prints on page #2 first,I think, by default because of it's wierd duplexing.
One sheet at a time for thick stock.

Since your in Europe, I'd try this stuff: https://www.megauk.com/artwork_films.php

 

[jpanhalt]

I did a number of board using a translucent polyester paper that happened to be "lying around" using a LaserJet 4/4m+. You really don't want to use transparency film.

Interesting advice. What's the rationale behind it?

I have been using transparency films with LaserJets for almost 30 years and never had a problem. Similarly, I have never used a method other than a transparency and photoresist for making PCB's for over ten years.

John

 

[ChildOfVision]

Thank you John and KeepItSimple for advices!
When I am buying "transparencies" (or OHP-foils) for LASER (or photocopy machines) it is "described" as polyester foils (polyester can withstand 200°C fusing temperature), so I didn't understood fully difference between "transparency film" and "polyester paper"! Did you, maybe, mean "tracing paper"?

The inkjet cartridges dried out long before they were exhausted.

YES, that drives me crazy! So I decided to work with laser.

You gave me two "recommendations": HP 4100 series, and HP P2015dn!
I will try to find them... And LJ 4, I forgot!

If you are on my shoes, and have no time to think long, what would you pick: 1) HP LJ 1320 or 2) Lexmark E332n?

You are asking about a very specific printer. Of the population that uses that printer, a very small fraction does the photoresist method.

John, what did you mean - what "population" uses this printer? Why that population does not use PR method (cheap printer, low quality or...)?

Thanks again!
Child

 

[jpanhalt]

I would buy the printer that makes acceptable copies and transparencies and consider whether the cost of supplies and acquisition were appropriate for its quality. There will be some trade offs, and only you can make such decisions on price.

For example, based on transparencies alone, the HP 4101mpf that I use is not very good. It was great in its time for lots of copies and duplexing. The transparencies are quite usable using the dry erase method. In fact, I compared several laser printers, including some Lexmark models, for PCB transparencies, and none were as dense as the dry erase gives, but some were better than the HP4100. None were as good as the inkjet.

I recently got a really cheap laser printer, the Brother HL-2270DW, which comes with built-in wireless and was on sale for less than $100 at my local stationary supply store. I have not put a transparency through it, but based on its print quality, I suspect it might be better than the HP4100. It is faster and quieter too. If I think of it, I will print a test transparency this Wednesday.

By "population," I meant the the group of people who use that printer. Only a very small fraction of people in the world who buy laser printers even make PCB's. Of those who do, most probably use toner transfer.

John

 

[tunedwolf]

I too use the Photo Resist/ Contact Print method, have done for 25+ years. I done some training 30 years ago as a PCB draftsman using crepe tapes and pads which was a mare compared to modern day techniques and CAD software. I learned early on that your media doesn't have to be transparent, only transparent to UV. Polyester drafting film is good in this respect and I have used it extensively throughout my time making my own boards without problems. I began using a Graphtec Pen Plotter with ceramic tipped pens, expensive, but good. If your photo processing is spot on, it's amazing just how little opacity you can get away with. I later moved onto small laser printers when the resolutions got above about 1000dpi, mainly small HP machines and mainly because of the speed advantage. The last Laser Printer I used successfully was the HP 1022, cheap as chips and gets the job done. I still miss watching the magic of the pen plotter though, your board just seemed to slowly "appear" out of whirring noises. I bet half the Pen Plotter installations around the globe were used to draw Snoopy just for the visual geekiness

 

[ChildOfVision]

I will ask seller to make some transparency-test on tracing-paper with Lexmark and will see... (Btw. we call tracing-paper here "paus-paper" - it is "milky" transparent paper used in architecture or engineering). I can't ask for the same for LJ1320, because the toner is exhausted (I would have to buy a new cartridge!).

My main concern about Lexmark printers is that I found alot of BAD reviews, about print quality and so on. Contrary, for HP LJ 1320 (it looks much like 4100, but it is manufactured 2005) I found all the best. I like old HP's (even with LPT only), but, although cheaper, those are more prone to malfunctions (due to long-term wear over many years), so...

And, yes, both printers (Lexmark and HP1320) are "chipped" (making refilling hard)... Toner cartridges for Lexmark is costlier than the same capacity toner for LJ1320.

I tried trick with dry-marker, with my current Samsung ML-1640 - no improvements at all! It is common here to make transparencies darker by exposing them to lacquer-thinner (called here "nitro-thinner") - a mixture of carbohydrates, or even acetone vapour (in metal box)! Most of people are very happy with this method! Does not work with my Samsung ...

Afaik, Brother printers manufactured after 2000 have different toner formulation (resin based, not polystyrene as usual), fusing temp. is much higher, and can not be used in toner-transfer method.

OK, I added LJ 1022 to list!

I bet half the Pen Plotter installations around the globe were used to draw Snoopy just for the visual geekiness

(I like Snoopy! And Smurfs!)

 

[jpanhalt]

I will ask seller to make some transparency-test on tracing-paper with Lexmark and will see... (Btw. we call tracing-paper here "paus-paper" - it is "milky" transparent paper used in architecture or engineering). I can't ask for the same for LJ1320, because the toner is exhausted (I would have to buy a new cartridge!).

Your concern about the density of the image indicates to me that the issue is not whether near UV light will penetrate the paper, but whether the image on the paper will block the light enough to give a sharp image. As I show in my blog, light that gets through the dark areas of image can cause the intended copper areas to have pinholes and ragged edges. That hurts resolution.

John

 

[jpanhalt]

Afaik, Brother printers manufactured after 2000 have different toner formulation (resin based, not polystyrene as usual), fusing temp. is much higher, and can not be used in toner-transfer method.

Sorry for the belated comment. Are you doing toner transfer or the photoresist method? Your first post seemed to indicate clearly you were doing the photoresist method. If you are doing toner transfer, disregard everything I have said.

John

 

[ChildOfVision]

You're right, John, the image does NOT have to be opaque-black, it can be yellow if blocks UV-light! I need printer for both: toner-transfer and photo-method - the common thing for both methods is even, "thick" layer of toner.

I could bet, the Brother printers are very good for photo-method, I just mentioned that (again: afaik!) its newer toner is not good for TT (high melting point), thus "not good for my demands" - TT AND photoresist, nothing else.

My life would be much easier if I'm using only TT or only PR, but, well, "I want it all, I want it now!" (it is not too clever decision, I know!)

 

[jbeng]

I've used "tracing paper" for making PCBs using the photo method in the past and have had very good results. The paper I used is a translucent drafting paper called "Clearprint" and is made of cotton. I had better results with it than transparency sheets when using a laser printer because the toner wouldn't flake off the paper. I had to increase the exposure time to 150 seconds when using the Clearprint. My best results, though, were by printing the artwork at 2x scale and taking them to a photographer who reduced them to 1x on the transparencies. I used an exposure time of 90 seconds and got excellent results.

 

[ChildOfVision]

I'm pretty sure we are talking about the same paper, jbeng:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracing_paper

I have a package of A4, Made in Germany (?), "Diamant Extra Special", "Natural Tracing Paper". It is [LATEX]92 g/m^2[/LATEX], and is intended for technical drawings (with fine "Rotring" or similar pens - even with 0,1 mm line width).

Can you tell me what laser printer do you use, and what you are using for exposure (what lamp)?

My best results, though, were by printing the artwork at 2x scale and taking them to a photographer who reduced them to 1x on the transparencies.

Yes, that is professional way to do PCB films.

Child

 

[jbeng]

It's been some time since I've made boards that way, but I printed the artwork with an old Hewlett-Packard LaserJet II. I expect any laser printer will work equally well. The lamps I use are F15T8/BL blacklight tubes. I use two of them at a distance of 4 inches from the artwork/PCB. The artwork is kept in contact with the PCB by a plate of flat glass.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

You know what I used to keep the film close to the board? Drops of water.

 

[ChildOfVision]

Thanks for the info, Jeff!

I expect any laser printer will work equally well.

I'm afraid not! Those old printers was not "stingy" on the toner, and made "lavished" deposits on media! Newer printers are "environment-friendly", toner particles are finer but with less of pigment.

You know what I used to keep the film close to the board? Drops of water.

Droplets of water? Too complicated and expensive to me!

 

[Sinedup]

Interesting text re PCB transparencies / UV exposure: I plan to approach a local PCB manufacturer for once-off (complex) boards rather than my normal Dalo-pen method. (No enlarger but have 2x M/F laser printers).. Are hi-res, lossless BMP (or other) saved files accepted? (idea is to scan/edit/save magazine projects (Video/RF), or design own boards on PC). Regards, Clive.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Who knows?

I have some old artwork (Bishop Graphics tape stuff) for a board I did. The manufacturer that did the board at the time gave me the negatives/positives. I don't know if it could even be used now. There would be no drill file, although all of the holes were the same size. This was the mid to early 80's. It was a double-sided ground plane board. The component side was all ground plane.

==

Try printing on translucent Polyester paper for the exposure.

For a thru-hole project I did, I used Scotch 77 Spray adhesive and made a glue on "silk screen". The package I used at the time was DOS based Easytrax, That program could print the outline of the traces rather than the traces themselves. It even worked for 2-layer. The layers were slightly different in printing. One area needed a ground plane, so I created a .ps file, modified it and sent the .ps file RAW to the printer.