Is this PCB fab site OK?

[kjennejohn]

I came across this offer at
PCB Order | DorkbotPDX
and the fab rates are so good as to be mind blowing? You literally are supposed to get three boards, professionally fabbed, for the cost of a single board for a mere $5/sq inch, with no setup fee?! I have been using ExpressPCB because I am using their download design package and no one else I looked into was noticeably different in costs. I am doing a 5.2 x 5.5 inch (28.6 SqIn) 2-sided board now that will cost me just under $300 if I have ExPCB do it (for two boards). But, even after I pay ExPCB their $60 fee to translate their proprietary files to a format I can use anywhere, and pay DorkBots $143 for their fab service for THREE boards, I still save $100! If I take the time to learn DesignSpark, a free download design package that produces Gerbers and NC drill files directly, I can save hundreds on board fabs for every board design! Have I died and gone to fab Heaven here?

The down side? They submit their panel(s) to their fab house every two weeks or so, and then they have to recieve the finished boards and mail them out to the customers. So maybe turnaround isn't the fastest you could hope for.

Does anyone here have any experience with this service? The comments on their page suggests present customers are happy with the results and services so far.
kenjj

 

[dknguyen]

It's not that mind blowing. It is when you first start looking at fab houses. But after enough time you get an idea of what's out there at hobby-targeted to commercial-targeted PCB fabs.

BatchPCB has a $10 setup fee but it's only $2.50 per square inch for 2-layers or $8 per square inch for 4-layers. They submit their batch about once a week or so. 4-layer boards are about once every 5-6 weeks.
do I get for these prices.

But here's the thing...it's easy to get blinded by the seemingly lower prices sometimes of these "middle-man" operations. Just remember than if you need some large boards or a few of the same board it very rapidly gets cheaper to go straight to a real board house. YOu just have to browse a bunch of them to see where the best deals are.

Like Sierra Proto Express has special offers for new customers (ie. less than 5 orders) for 2, 4 layer boards with 5-day turnaround. THere's a 4-board minimum and it costs $29 per 2-layer board or $49 per 4-layer board. But this is a flat cost for the board up to 50 square inches. So if you do the math, you'll see that it can be much cheaper to go this route if you need even 3 of the same board, especially if they are big boards.

Other than that new customer special offer, their regular discounted service for 2,4, and 6 layer boards which they call "No-Touch" might seem expensive off the start. But most of the costs are in that setup fee and only increase slightly for rather significant increases in board size or quantity. You'd almost always choose the longest lead time too just to make it much much cheaper (like 10 days) which is pretty fast.

I ran a bunch of quotes for their No-Touch service with 10-day turn around time which is the longest and cheapest possible (not their special customer offer since that's just a flat rate for every board up to 50 sq-in):
one 2x2" 2-layer-> $72
three 2x2" 2-layer-> $93
five 2x2" 2-layer-> $145

one 3x3" 2-layer -> $78
two 3x3" 2-layer ->$93
three 3x3" 2-layer ->$99
five 3x3" 2-layer -> $150
-------------------------------------
one 2x2" 4-layer-> $119
two 2x2" 4-layer-> $141
three 2x2" 4-layer-> $149
five 2x2" 4-layer-> $229

one 3x3" 4-layer-> $124
two 3x3" 4-layer-> $145
three 3x3" 4-layer-> $155
five 3x3" 4-layer-> $236
-------------------------------------
one 2x2" 6-layer-> $228
three 2x2" 6-layer -> $286

one 5x5" 6-layer -> $294
three 5x5" 6-layer -> $316
-------------------------------------

If you do the math you'll see that the middle-man services are definately cheaper for the 2x2" 2-layer boards. But if you do some more math you see once you need 2 or more of the same PCB that is 3x3" or larger, it becomes possible to gets it cheaper to go with the discounted PCB service direct from the board house. And the larger the boards are or the more you need, the exponentially cheaper it gets. We aren't talking about hundreds of boards here. THe difference might be as small as wanting to get 5 boards instead of 3. And usually from a board house you want to get at least 3 boards since it costs the same as getting 1 or 2 boards because of that initial setup cost.

DorkBotPDX is quite a bit more expensive than BatchPCB actually. DorkBotPDx is only cheaper if your boards are going 3sq-in or less. At 3sq-in the cost is about the same as BatchPCB rapidly gets cheaper after that since it's per area pricing is half that of DorkBotPDX, even though there is a setup fee.

At around the break even points I keep talking about between the DorkBot, BatchPCB, and Sierra Proto Express, DorkBot is around $35 more expensive than Sierra Proto Express while Batch PCB is around 20-$35 cheaper than Sierra Proto Express.

You literally are supposed to get three boards, professionally fabbed, for the cost of a single board for a mere $5/sq inch, with no setup fee?! I have been using ExpressPCB because I am using their download design package and no one else I looked into was noticeably different in costs. I am doing a 5.2 x 5.5 inch (28.6 SqIn) 2-sided board now that will cost me just under $300 if I have ExPCB do it (for two boards). But, even after I pay ExPCB their $60 fee to translate their proprietary files to a format I can use anywhere, and pay DorkBots $143 for their fab service for THREE boards, I still save $100!

It's 40% cheaper with BatchPCB compared to DorkBotPDX for a 29sq-in board. DorkBot PDX has a really high unit area cost for 2-layer boards. Batch PCB's $8 per sq-in for 4-layers is ridiculously overpriced compared to $2.50 per sq-in for 2-layers. But compared to DorkBot's $5 per sq-in for 2-layers, $8 per sq-in for 4 layers seems downright reasonable. If you look it logically, it should be $2.50 for 2-layers, $5 for 4-layers and $8 for 6-layers so with DorkBot PDX you're getting charged almost double!

If you only want one board then either BatchPCB or Sierra Proto Express's discounted service (Nocalled -Touch) with 10-day turnaround would be cheapest. It costs $82-$85 between the two. If you need 2 boards, it's definately cheaper to go with the Sierra Proto Express as it costs $104 where as BatchPCB would cost almost 2x as much (since it's priced by board area). If you need 4 boards it's cheapest to go with Sierra's new customer special offer (since they have the 4-board minimum, and the turn around time is only 5 days.

 

[kjennejohn]

Damn, dknguyen, you be quick and thorough!
I remember now, I checked BatchPCB out before. My present design would be $81 or so, for a single board (right?), not including the mailing costs. The only hangup for me is the minimum drill size for 2-layer boards: 20mil. My ExpressPCB design package has a minimum pad for vias with a 13mil hole, so BatchPCB is going to reject my design right off the bat. I like that small a via, I can really squeeze a lot of traces up close. Of course, being a rank amateur, there may be ways around tight space that lets me use a larger hole, but that's where it stands for now.
I'll have to check out Sierra and see what they are about. Can you supply a web address?
One other thing about DorkBot's service is the fact that the fab house they use is in the US, so the money "stays here at home". The longer wait with BaPCB doesn't bother me, the stuff I'm doing now is mostly farm projects anyway.
Thanks for the info. Every little bit furthers my education here!
kenjj

 

[dknguyen]

Sierra Circuits Inc.: PCB manufacturer & PCB Assembly Services

After my first couple PCB projects, I promised myself that for my projects I'd always just make 4+ layer boards just because I find I spend so much space routing power and its also easier to mess up since there are power paths everywhere that might be broken as you route other signals. That's caught me a bunch of times grrr. I hate hunting down shorts lol.

Yeah if you go with proprietary software like PCB Express it does tie your hands off the start. THe nice thing though about a real board house is that if your project does screw you and require you to go with a board with lots of layers, or is large, or has some special requirements is that you can let loose in pretty much all other areas since it doesn't cost anymore anyways lol. It's the only consolation haha. It's like this FPGA board I'm trying to plan. 8-12 friggin layers and BGA mounting service so it cost a buttload, but I can pretty much do whatever I want like adding any more BGA components or other hand unsolderable components since it's not gonna cost any extra. About the only thing I "think" I can't do is impedance controlling. At the same time...don't want to do something too fancy since you don't want it to mess up either because then you end up with a thousand dollar paper weight!

:S

 

[kjennejohn]

Thanks for the site.
I imagine you have a lot of FR4 place mats?
This is just my third board. The others were 3.8 by 2.5, it's one of ExPCB's better services, three boards with two-day shipping for less than $100. This one wanted to be bigger. The first two were lotsa parts in too little space, so a bear to route power traces through. This time I decided to do copper fill, both sides: the top is positive, the bottom is ground. This made it a little easier. I just discovered a power pin sitting isolated in the middle of its own little copper island, forcing me to run a trace to it from the outside world.
Later.
kenjj

 

[Laen]

Hi, I'm Laen. I do the DorkbotPDX order.

But here's the thing...it's easy to get blinded by the seemingly lower prices sometimes of these "middle-man" operations. Just remember than if you need some large boards or a few of the same board it very rapidly gets cheaper to go straight to a real board house. YOu just have to browse a bunch of them to see where the best deals are.

Yeah, my goals/targets for the dorkbotpdx order were:
- Small boards. I expected the average order to be under $10.
- Quick turnaround. For the first few orders, I was able to get people their boards back within a week of ordering. Now it's about two weeks, but as business picks up, I'll be able to afford one week turn again.
- American fabrication. It's a LOT more expensive, but that's mostly because there are costs due to the different environmental and labor laws that apply to asian fabs. I think it's worth it.

I ran a bunch of quotes for their No-Touch service with 10-day turn around time which is the longest and cheapest possible (not their special customer offer since that's just a flat rate for every board up to 50 sq-in):

one 2x2" 2-layer-> $72
three 2x2" 2-layer-> $93
five 2x2" 2-layer-> $145

one 3x3" 2-layer -> $78
two 3x3" 2-layer ->$93
three 3x3" 2-layer ->$99
five 3x3" 2-layer -> $150

For the DorkbotPDX PCB Service:
one 2x2" 2-layer -> $20
three 2x2" 2-layer -> $20
five 2x2" 2-layer -> $40

one 3x3" 2-layer -> $45
two 3x3" 2-layer -> $45
three 3x3" 2-layer -> $45
five 3x3" 2-layer -> $90

..Since you always get three copies of your board, minimum..

one 2x2" 4-layer-> $119
two 2x2" 4-layer-> $141
three 2x2" 4-layer-> $149
five 2x2" 4-layer-> $229

one 3x3" 4-layer -> $124
two 3x3" 4-layer -> $145
three 3x3" 4-layer-> $155
five 3x3" 4-layer-> $236

For the DorkbotPDX PCB Service:
one 2x2" 4-layer -> $40
two 2x2" 4-layer -> $40
three 2x2" 4-layer -> $40
five 2x2" 4-layer -> $80

one 3x3" 4-layer -> $90
two 3x3" 4-layer -> $90
three 3x3" 4-layer -> $90
five 3x3" 4-layer -> $180

..I don't know what their equation is, so I don't know at what point they become cheaper, but they'll definitely get cheaper at some point. If you want to buy a lot of PCB space, there are TONS of places to get it cheaper. If you only have a few square inches (or a lot of square inches, spread out over several designs), I _think_ I'm the cheapest option available..

DorkBotPDX is quite a bit more expensive than BatchPCB actually. DorkBotPDx is only cheaper if your boards are going 3sq-in or less. At 3sq-in the cost is about the same as BatchPCB rapidly gets cheaper after that since it's per area pricing is half that of DorkBotPDX, even though there is a setup fee.

Yeah, if you just want one copy of your board, that's true. BatchPCB is $10 + $2.50 per square inch, so our prices are the same for a four square inch board, and they're cheaper for anything past that. Also, they sometimes throw in an extra board for free.

With the DorkbotPDX service, you get three copies for $5/square inch, though. So if you have use for three (which I, as a hobbyist, normally do), then the DorkbotPDX service is cheaper all the way around. The effective price per square inch then drops to $1.66.

It's 40% cheaper with BatchPCB compared to DorkBotPDX for a 29sq-in board. DorkBot PDX has a really high unit area cost for 2-layer boards. Batch PCB's $8 per sq-in for 4-layers is ridiculously overpriced compared to $2.50 per sq-in for 2-layers. But compared to DorkBot's $5 per sq-in for 2-layers, $8 per sq-in for 4 layers seems downright reasonable. If you look it logically, it should be $2.50 for 2-layers, $5 for 4-layers and $8 for 6-layers so with DorkBot PDX you're getting charged almost double!

Yeah, when ordering panels from fabs, it's not even a nice linear curve like that. The price difference between 2 and 4 layer is less than 2x, and the price difference from 2 to 6 is less than 3x. 8 layers _does_ cost more than 4x a 2 layer, and then it gets exponential.

 

[kjennejohn]

Well, I checked out Sierra. If I get their standard Web order, using their standard fab practices, I have to get four boards, wait two weeks for fabing, and pay $140 or so. Then again there is their first time customer special of four boards at $29 apiece, so there's $120, not bad. Can't say if this includes shipping. I particularily liked their page with explanations about positive vs negative and specing things like board outline. In the end I didn't know what to answer to some of their questions in the web specials order placement page, so I can't swear there wasn't better pricing available.


Their AFV (automatic design verification) looked interesting, and their staff of no-touch engineers waiting to go over a design (in some cases, not all) is comforting. But I'm intimidated at the thought of submittimg a beginner's design to a panel of experts. Having an enthusiastic knowledgable person like Laen waiting to pore over my design appeals to me more AT THE MOMENT.

Anybody else have anything to say or suggest? I'm still open to input.
kenjj

 

[DirtyLude]

Late to the frey here, but I've ordered from both BatchPCB and DorkbotPDX. I'm not going to read dknguyen's post in detail, but it looks like he failed to include the fact that you get 3 boards for $5 /sq inch on the DorkbotPDX order compared to 1 board per $2.50 at BatchPCB plus 10 setup fee plus shipping.

The DorkbotPDX specs are also much better. 6mil trace/space compared to 8mil trace space, which is useful to me. I use SMD all the time and make small boards and don't actually sell anything, so getting a $100 panel made up is not useful to me.

I usually etch my own boards, but I'll be using this service again for sure.

Attached images DorkbotPDX board that I just received. Front/Back.
BatchPCB board that I've received in the past. Front/Back.

 

[Jon Chandler]

https://www.pcbfabexpress.com is the cheapest I've found for small quantities.

Up to a 10 in-sq board, 2 layers, soldermask, silk screen on the top. For 3 boards, it's about $15 each or $45 total plus shipping.

 

[kjennejohn]

At ExpressPCB (the fab service I started with) I can get three double-sided boards, 3.8 by 2.5 (28.5 sq. in.) , no mask or silkscreen, shipped next day if ordered M thru F, two day shipping, for $61 (with shipping). Smallest drill size is 13 thou. SMT is a go. This is covered at
**broken link removed**

The same boards at Jon's pcbfabexpress (must order 4), no mask or silkscreen, five day turn only (that slow?!), at 60 cents per square inch + $40 lot charge + $15 (average) shipping (maybe two days, if in CA) is $77.80. Drill sizes less than 15 thou are a "slight extra charge", and "SMT Pitch" is "N.A.", whatever that means. This is charted at
PCBFABEXPRESS Printed Circuit Boards and PCB Assembly

Dorkbots service for these three boards is the size of one (9.5 sq. in.) board times $5, or $47.50. This includes MASK AND SILKSCREEN ON BOTH SIDES! These ship nine days after they submit their order to fab. Shipping is by USPS. Charted at
PCB Order | DorkbotPDX

You'll get your standard order back quickest with ExpressPCB. I see no advantage with pcbfabexpress at all for bare minimum boards. Dorkbots appears no slower than pcbfabexpress, but you get three COMMERCIAL-QUALITY boards with all the trimmings at superior prices.
I just SOOO gotta learn how to use DipTrace ( DipTrace - Professional Schematic & PCB Design Software ) to design and layout boards with! It's free, and will allow me to produce files that can be used with Dorkbots.
Later.
kenjj

 

[Jon Chandler]

...I can get three double-sided boards, 3.8 by 2.5 (28.5 sq. in.)...

The same boards at Jon's pcbfabexpress (must order 4), no mask or silkscreen, five day turn only (that slow?!), at 60 cents per square inch + $40 lot charge + $15 (average) shipping (maybe two days, if in CA) is $77.80. Drill sizes less than 15 thou are a "slight extra charge", and "SMT Pitch" is "N.A.", whatever that means. This is charted at
PCBFABEXPRESS Printed Circuit Boards and PCB Assembly

Ummm....the board size is the size on ONE board, not the lot, 3.8 x 2.5 = 9.5 square inches.

From the chart below, 5 boards below 10 square inches are $15 each for a 5-day turnaround for a total of $65.

Specs:

2 Layer Standard Technology PCBs.
5 mils (0.005") minimum trace width/spacing.
FR-4 Material, 0.062" thick.
Soldermask & Legend included.
Electrical Testing is optional.

I've used PCBFABEXPRESS many times and I've very satisfied with their results.

 

[kjennejohn]

Right. Dorkbot's three 9.5 sq. in. boards come to $47.5/3, or $15.83 apiece.
Actually, five times $15 is $75, not $65, so pcbfabexpress' five 10 sq in boards are $87 for the lot (with $12 shipping) or $92 (with $17 shipping), so $17.4 or $18.40. Not bad for masked and silkscreened boards.
I set out using ExpressPCB's cheapest board service, then looked up pcbfabexpress' comparable service for bare boards.
Of course, I haven't checked to see if pcbfabexpress still has that minimum hole set to 15 thou for this service. If so, I'd have to pay the "extra charge" for my 13 thou via holes.
Later.
ken

 

[DirtyLude]

I just SOOO gotta learn how to use DipTrace ( DipTrace - Professional Schematic & PCB Design Software ) to design and layout boards with! It's free, and will allow me to produce files that can be used with Dorkbots.
Later.
kenjj

Unless you are going over the maximum Eagle Lite limitation, I would go with Eagle. The scripts offered by DorkbotPDX for DRC and gerber extract with Eagle were really easy to use. Also Eagle just has a lot of support in the hobby and open source hardware community.