Is it saftey or common sense first?

[tcmtech]

A while back I was doing some service work at a large manufacturing facility that was owned by a larger corporation. They had safety first signs, posters and stickers every where.
I was talking with the maintenance departments head person later that day and asked what all of the safety stuff was about.
He said the corporation spent 6 million dollars a year for the last two years on safety awareness training.
I said, wow! How well is it working?
He said, super! Last year we saved an estimated one million on lost time and injury accidents plus equipment damages from misuse.
Then I asked him, how much was spent on common sense training?
He said, well, none that I am aware of. Why would we need that?
I said, Your Company spends a documented six million a year to save an estimated one million.
Then I said, So, Would it not be cheaper to just spend the 1 million every year and just write it off as an unavoidable operating expense?
His answer. …… Well who would do a training program for such a thing?
I said. I don’t know. But the people charging you six million a year to save you one million are probably not the ones to ask!

 

[ScareCrow]

osha star plant .....hehehe

Real safety training starts when you are very young. Common sense should be brought to the workplace, not learned there. Should we really have to teach adults not to stick their heads in a machine while it's running?


FLASH! the OSHA VPP program is a scam...oh, everybody already knew?

 

[mramos1]

I like it, a couple folks take one for the Company and you save $5 million.

Not bad until ones find a lawyer and goes after the company though.

 

[tcmtech]

If the company fork lift is poorly maintianed and you role down a ramp into a cutomers vehical, total said viehical and forklift, get a head injury and a broken arm, then yes its a solid lawsuite.
However, If you took the defective forklift from the maintenace bay (because you just really like that one!) while it was having the brake master cylinder rebuilt and was taged as having no brakes and was not to be used right on the steering wheel.
Then do the part in the first paragraph, now who's fault is it?
This story came from the same company this post is about by the way!

 

[Sceadwian]

It's not even about common sense, it's about taking things for granted, which everyone does at some point no matter how fastidious they are about safety. I think the absurd amounts of money some companies spend on 'saftey' first projects are just to keep sign companies in business though. =\ Constant reminders of having to be vigilant about saftey are the only way to keep the workplace safe in an environment with a large number of employees. I definitly think that very few companies are spendign that money as smartly as they could.

 

[tcmtech]

I designed a custom digital boiler control system for a guy so he could run three structures off one central wood fueled boiler system.
Home made of couse! His design not mine. I did the layout and engineering work on it, they did most of the install with used or surplus parts and cut corners on everything!

His house, His parents house, and his dads shop are all integrated and controled from the central digital unit. Super efficient use of wood heat though!

Earlier this winter he had some bad wiring issues. Stuff he did to save money on the install, so not my problem. His wiring went bad plus the blower fan motor went out after 30 plus years!
First he tried to say I owed him a new blower, blower control relay and wiring.
Why? Because that motor has worked perfectly up to that point so it was clearly my relay that burned up and ruined the motor. Not the other way around. He came home and his house was cold, found the 15 amp fuse for the furnace was out. he replaced it with a 30 amp and saw a big spark in the relay box on his furnace a few seconds later.
To compound the problem he took the relay off his dads shop furnace to test his furnace control box and burned that one up too!
Two buildings down one to go. His dad said, no you cant have my house one. mine still works!
He took the boiler controler apart to see if he could find the real reason for the failures because he still could not believe that motor just died after working so well for 30 years.

He used the antiboil over function control relay that turns on the pumps and fans to limit the boilers high temp. He figured it did not need it because it has never boiled over before. ? Plus its the only one he could pull that did not imediatley shut something down!
3 relays burned up. Two buildings down!
boiler boils over constantly now. Hmmm I wonder why?
He sure its a control problem that should be warantied now.
He called about twenty times while trouble shooting the bad furnace motor. Never gave me any usefull info to work with and never did one thing I asked him to do so I could get an acurate idea of what failed where. Voltage tests, wire continuity tests, basic process of elemination trouble shooting steps.

Also pops house does not heat right for some reason!
His house only works on manual pumps and fan and same with the shop.
It must definitely be a controller problem!

Oh, and he lives 210 miles away and wants it repaired as a free service call!
I told him I would do it for the cost of fuel and $300 to rebuild the controler systems.
Just send me a check and Iwill be right there. He has no money to pay!

I have known about this problem for two months now but I still cant find the time to check it out for some reason.

 

[Sceadwian]

Sounds like the control system would have prevented it, thankfully he was not knowledgeable or stupid+lucky enough to break things in a fatal way, could have been the next Darwin award =)

 

[tcmtech]

He has been one of my most entertaining cutomers!

The control system has been designed down to one button function. Start a fire, Push a button.
The Button starts the intake draft motor to get the fire started. If the boiler does not see a minimum temp reached within a specific time it assumes that the fire never took off and shuts everything down.
The high limit turned on the pump and fan for the shop circuit to draw excess heat off when the water temp got to high. burning wood cant be turned off, only slowed down.

So far have had aleast 3 calls because of "contoller problems" due to the controller shuting down 100 minutes after he started the fire. The exact time out point reached if the fire went out.

Start a fire, press a button. He gets one part of that right fairly often. (not the fire starting part!)

The low water and high limit functions sound a 120 dB piezo alarm whenever they are triggered too.
The LCD display tells exactly what function and action is taking place at any moment.
Alarms tell you exactly why they are going off!

I have had 5 calls related to the alarm going off. When asked what alarm message he was getting, every time he said I did not look to see. I just figured the controler was messing up and you should come look at it, under warranty of course!

He had heat transfer problems last winter too. He said the pumps were bad and the heat exchangers were to small.

When I installed the system it could raise his house and parents house temps at 20F per hour and the 32 * 40 shop at 15F an hour. At 0F outside temp. I did the actual running measurements myself!

I told him to take the four screws out and see if they are just plugged up. (cartridge pumps)
Instead he spent $500 replacing 2 of the 3 heat exchangers and had no improvement in heat transfer. It Got worse actualy!
What he put in were 100k btu. He said the ones I had were too small. What I sold him were 160K btu commercial take outs that had been cleaned and tested. He figured I should pay for the new ones because the others were used. I got them back in trade for the service work. (both houses heat at less than 10F per hour now)

He had asked for used and cheap when I designed the system.

I checked the pumps out last summer. Every one was packed full of crust and crud.
IT took about 5 minutes each from start to finish and was done right on the boiler. (They never cleaned the boiler out when they built it, just left everything in it after assembly. dirt, wood shims, welding slag)
I showed him them as I took them off. All he said was, I didnt think that was the problem.
I found the water sensor or what was left of it in one! Some time over the winter they just unhooked it to keep the alarm from going off. It melted the float end off of a 350 degree rated sensor.
He thought I should give him a new one of those too!

Related to that taking the high limit relay out. I have had two phone calls since then wanting the acces code to the PLR so he can go in and turn the running temp down so it wont boil over. It's set at 180 F. high limit is 205F. He has 50/50 antifreeze in the system so it should not boil until at least 235 F!
He says the Temp sensor is off because water boils at 212F but the LCD (and the mechanical) say 231F when it starts to boil over

Do you really think he can understand how to do that?
I am temped to give it to him just to see how bad it gets!

 

[Sceadwian]

Jeez, tell me more, this is one of the best reads I've run across in a while =O I'd be careful about what kind of information you give him for the controller, you could be legally liable if he blows himself up for supplyingit . It's like handing a loaded gun to a 3 year old <smirk>

 

[tcmtech]

By Request! Part 1
This is how the “Homer Simpson” boiler project got started.

About 3 winters ago this customer of mine inquired about a way to heat three buildings off of wood heat but not use wood burners in each place. (Literally too poor to afford home fire insurance so they wanted to move the fire to outside of the buildings!)

(They are super nice people and I have known them for many years too.)
I have told them about the development of my homemade boiler system over the years and with a fair amount to of educated designing and much testing I have developed a very efficient and reliable heating system for my place.
When fuel oil reached $3 a gallon they decided that a central boiler system was the best way to go.
They asked me if I would build them one. Said I would be happy to! I drew up the entire system, calculated the fuel requirements, and install work required to do a multi structure integrated heating system. I gave them all this for free.
It was just a matter of scaling my system up to handle more heat capacity, so most of the work had already been done.
I gave them a complete built and installed price of $6000 with a 3 year warranty.
They said that was too much. (They spend around that much on fuel oil every winter any way)
They wanted to do most of the work them selves and get by cheaper. Their estimate was that they could do it for around $2000. ??? (Remember this number!)
I should have said no and walked away at that point. But I do love a good engineering challenge!
I drew up the actual install plans, materials lists and suppliers and let them get the stuff themselves.
My mistake number one! Never give a corner cutter a list of materials. He will always find cheaper ways to make it almost sort of work!

The two houses were to be connected by underground hot water lines. The line construction details I gave them were very specific.
1: Use hot water rated 1” ID Pex pipe.
I got asked several times if they could use regular black polyethylene pipe.
First irrigation rated. (It’s the cheapest). I said no poly pipe of any sort! Use pex!

Next call was a day later, can we use regular home service rated poly pipe? (Next cheapest). I said no poly pipe of any sort! Use pex! Again!

He called two days later. Can we use commercial grade poly pipe? (Costs the same as pex but is not high temp rated. They found it surplus.)
I said no poly pipe of any sort! Use pex! There is a reason for it!

They finally ordered 600 feet of pex pipe. (And the right size too!)
The project called for 580 feet total based on my actual measurements and layout paths.

Step two: Put two pipes side by side and tape them together, and then wrap them with 3 layers of Reflectix aluminized insulation, with the control wire in between the second and third layers.
I helped out personally with that part. I even donated the control wire and enough of it so the there was two runs going from end to end. (A redundant back up line. Remember this part too!)

Step three: Get 6 inch corrugated (solid, not perforated) drain tubing and slide the insulated assembly in side it. This protects the insulation and control wires from ground water and being crushed by dirt. They called me a week later when they had it. I told them to assemble the entire runs above ground. The stiff Pex can be pushed over 300 feet though corrugated tubing above ground. I have done it by myself before, it slides that easy!
Step four: burry it in a smooth strait trench about two to three feet down.
If it’s smooth and has no sharp bends it can be pulled out if ever needed.
He called a week after that and said they rented a backhoe and have the corrugated tubing in the ground and are ready for me to come do the final setup.
I arrived and found all the insulated tubing still rolled up and sitting in the yard right where we left it. But the corrugated tubing was in the ground just like he said! Wrong stuff though, they went with perforated not solid! It was on sale for 10 cents a foot cheaper! The actual underground runs were less than 200 feet total so they saved about $20.
Second time I should have walked away!
I said you did it wrong now you need to dig it up and do it over! He said he did the trenching himself so he knows the tubing is level and strait. They got a 1 inch fiber rope to try and pull it through. We got about twenty feet down the tube before my ¾ ton pickup (in FWD) spun out! Now that run is stuck, can’t go in cant come back!
I should have walked away for the third time!

They rented the mini excavator again and I did the dig up work. In those 20 feet of trench there was three elevation changes of plus or minus 8 inches and two side to side snakes the width of the 18 inch trench. I rore the corrugated tubing all to hell too! They figured that I should pay for the replacement being I dug it up and hooked it so much!

I told him, you said you put it in level and strait! Well it felt level when I was digging it.
That was the answer I got. They own a failing construction company by the way. (I wonder why?)
I said, didn’t you get down in the trench and hand check and level it? Well no. I thought the machine was more accurate than that. And I was in a hurry, it was snowing that day I dug the trenches. (He had never run a mini excavator in his life until then.)
And why is it so snaked up in the trench? Well, we back filled with the 5 yard pay loader. I dumped too much at a time so it must have pushed it around when we filled it in.

I should point out that their $2000 estimate is now at near $3500 actual cost, with the rework and repeat machine rentals! And that’s with one house almost connected and the boiler still sitting in the shop unfinished!

 

[Sceadwian]

How many parts are there to this story? I'm not sure I can keep my sanity for more than a second one! But much like any train wreck I wait on baited breath to see which cab hits next =\

 

[Mickster]

Please, please, please carry on with this story.

 

[tcmtech]

Part 2
I will point now that the 580 feet of measuring I did was also a complete waste of time. They went with their own pipe run paths. The one house should have been less than 180 feet total length of pipe used. They decided to run it to another point further back on the house and then run all the way down one side of the basement ceiling, do a 90 degree and go 16 feet to the furnace do another 90 and come back 5 feet to the furnace itself.
I had drawn up the run as coming directly strait line from the boiler to the middle of the house and diagonally across the ceiling and down in front of the furnace. About 60 feet less total run.
Plus the outside run did not come directly from the boiler towards the house. As I had mapped and measured it. It went out 90 degrees to it then swept back at a sharp turn.
This also took up 15 feet more run length each way. Plus it put a splice under ground in both pipes and both control wire sets.
I hate doing underground splices on anything! Number one fail point no matter how well you do them!
I had no choice on the splicing, when we did the assembly everything was cut to the length needed for the underground runs as mapped plus a few feet extra!
That run is now 270 feet as installed. Glad I chose to oversize the pumps!
This two day hookup is now on day 4 and not even running one house yet and around $1500 over budget!
I spent a day and a half more finishing the boiler and getting it installed. They were to have had that done already too, but didn’t because it was getting cold outside.
The week they were supposed to have it done at was still 40F or better. Now it’s around 20 F and dropping to 0 F at night. Plus the ground has 6 plus inches of frost and about 10 inches of snow too.
Six days have gone by and one house is working well. And the shop works well too!
Running tests have shown the system can raise the one house from 50F to 70F in an hour and the shop from 40 F to 55 F in an hour while at 0 F outside!
The second house run got laid over ground for the winter. I had to wait 2 more days for the extra 100 feet of Pex to show up so I could get the last house working. (Second day delivery of a pallet, guess what the shipping was on that!)

I spent two more days and did a full test and tune on the system. They figured I should give them a price break on the install being I did not fully finish it. Plus they were now near $4500 into it and had spent more than double what they thought it would cost.

They said they could not pay me now because of all thecost over runs and wondered if I would take $20 a month? I said sure. I will just lock the PLC and send you the unlock code when I am paid in full. His mom came out with a $1000 in cash a few minutes later.
For the food and lodging they gave me for ten days I only took his snow blower for the cost difference. For my extra time and effort to finish his work, I took his 300 gallon propane tank (Still had propane too!). For misc expenses I took everything else I could possibly find to be of any use to me! After all they were broke now!

A two day job quote took ten days on site and was only roughed in for the winter.
I had quoted them $6000 for a 5 day install with 3 year warranty, IF I did all the boiler build and install work myself.
They got no warranty and itstill took a week more to redo the next fall and another $2000.
That’s in Part 3

 

[Mickster]

Keep it coming....

 

[mramos1]

Great story.

I still believe more money into smart employees pockets is better than money to the (outside) people that train/educate the ones that should already know there job and have good common sense.

Our Government here in the USA has a lack of that as well.

Like giving the car companies ??? billion dollars because the auto people need jobs. How about give the tax payers the money in a certificate they can only spend on a car. Then the car people get bailed out and the tax payers get a new car. Double the bang for the buck. Makes sense to me anyway.

The good news is tcmtech will have plenty of work during the bad times with customers like that.

 

[tcmtech]

Very true! If supply and demand proves someone else can do a better job for less and still supply a better product let greedy or lazy bastards go under!

If your too lazy,clueless or innept you will eventualy suffer the consequences of it. Reward hard work and smart thinking!
You reap what you sow! If your too lazy to plant a garden or to cheap to tend to it properly you will eventualy either starve or have to buy from someone elses garden.

But dont whine about the mark up that gardener puts on his veggies and say his prices are to high and you could have grown your own for less. Dispite having seen that he has the knowledge, expertise and equipmet you dont have.
If you really do have his knowlege or abilities and are properly applying them , you would not be having to buy from him in the first place!

 

[tcmtech]

Part 3
Last fall I was over at this customers place doing a complete redesign and rebuild of the whole system. I had a seasonal job near there and agreed to do the work for free if I could stay at their farm. They were happy to trade!
The branch of the system that had been run over ground had been dug in during the summer some time.
They still did it horribly wrong anyway even after all the trouble and expense that they went through redoing the first house.
He rented the mini excavator for a third time and had dug up the 200 feet of corrugated tubing that ran to his house and utterly destroyed it!
To compound the problem he did not buy new stuff. Instead he just dropped the insulated pipe right in the trench which he buried at 6 feet deep not 2 to 3 feet like I told him too! (Several times)
Without the corrugated tubing to protect the aluminized insulation it will be crushed and rot out very quickly. We had that discussion several times before the rework had been done. I even drew pictures for him this time!

He insisted it will be fine because his put a foot of straw down in the trench before he covered it up and they have been doing that to sewer drain fields for thirty years. ????
I am pretty sure this is not a sewer install!
I said that won’t matter when it gets water logged and rots. It will just eat away at the insulation that much faster. Plus I said that control wire is not rated for underground use. It will rot out and go bad before the first winter is over. The whole purpose of the corrugated tubing is to keep it dry and not get crushed! Oh well too late any way.
I told him, you will be digging it up in less than 3 years because once that insulation rots away the heat your loosing will keep that strip of ground thawed out all winter.

The boiler got pulled out and totally rebuilt and redesigned. The pumps were cleaned and well, you already saw the rest in the earlier post.
I was there for five weeks from the seasonal job running way over. Super pay though. I got to give them hands on training and see the system run for two weeks heating all three buildings with no problems. I never did need to change the software’s running parameters! The new design and system rework was well with in its operating range.

Around December his folks went out of town for two weeks and he got lazy and let the system drop back to the redundant back up fuel. ($4 a gallon fuel oil)
Part of the digital control system is that if the fire goes out or if there is a system failure the old fuel oil burners still take over automatically but at a lower temp settings.
He went to work and did not think to check his fuel level for his house. He never put fuel in last summer when it was down at $2 a gallon. It ran out and froze up while he was gone.
Plus several days of being cold had caused the unprotected lines running to his house to contract and ripped the control wires some place under ground too. When he did fire up the boiler the controls would not respond for his house circuit. That’s about the same point the blower motor went out as well. See earlier post for that story as well.
During my stay I noticed that his branch only had one control wire set coming in. He said that the second wires end about 10 feet out in the yard where he had to splice everything.
The reason there is a splice is because he went with a different route with this trench and also buried the line deeper. He still thought I should pay for the added line because my measurements were off according to him. It made no sense to him that if you drop a pipe from 2 feet to 6ix feet deeper each end uses up 4 more feet of the total line. Plus a small jog around the outside of a tree cost him a few feet too.
The second control line never got extended because well, it worked just fine last winter so why bother extending the back up if your not using it! ???
I already stopped caring months ago. I figured why should I? They obviously don’t!
Present cost to now? Around $6500 and still rising! That branch has to be dug up again next summer. The ground settling is causing the pipe splices to pull apart and leak. I bet corrugated tubing would have helped!
He plans to just buy all new feed line and burry it, not reuse the pipe he already has, it can easily be salvaged but would have to be reinsulated and properly reburied in corrugated tubing this time. I estimate I can do it for around $1400 with excavator rental.
The factory line he wants to use is all set up and looks exactly like what I made but costs about $15 a linear foot instead of $5 a foot. The factory stuff still does not have a control wire though!
Hmm… 15 * 200 = $3000 plus another $100 for control wire and new line couplers and $400 for equipment rental and two days work. I think that comes to $3500 more added to that $6500 they already spent.
Plus the original pipe run was 580 feet as I mapped it. They now have around 750 feet in the system!
The 600 feet that they ordered the first time got them into the bulk discount range with the supplier and had free shipping with it! The other 150 feet has cost them almost as much as the first 600 feet due to no bulk discounts or free shipping.
For $10,000 I would have given them a 10 year unconditional warranty! And seasonal service too!

But in reality they have a hack job heating system that has no warranty and will probably get redone at least once more in the next few years!
But they do admit they are using the same amount of wood to keep three structures heated as they had been using for just heating his parents house!
And only needing to cut the fire wood down to 12” diameter and 4 feet long saves a lot of processing time and effort too.

The next controller is going to have a voice synthesizer that actually tells them what is going wrong! But I still think they won’t follow its instructions.
I would not be surprised if I get several phone calls asking why the alarm keeps going off and the controller keeps saying “Warning, Low water, check system!” or “Failed to reach running temp, Auto start cycle timed out”

 

[Mikebits]

Can't wait to see you on peoples court...

 

[bryan1]

I know this family is your friend but looks at it this way if the whole gene pool is there let them make there own controller and with the above story this will win the 2009 darwin award....

 

[HiTech]

A while back I was doing some service work at a large manufacturing facility that was owned by a larger corporation. They had safety first signs, posters and stickers every where.
I was talking with the maintenance departments head person later that day and asked what all of the safety stuff was about.
He said the corporation spent 6 million dollars a year for the last two years on safety awareness training.
I said, wow! How well is it working?
He said, super! Last year we saved an estimated one million on lost time and injury accidents plus equipment damages from misuse.
Then I asked him, how much was spent on common sense training?
He said, well, none that I am aware of. Why would we need that?
I said, Your Company spends a documented six million a year to save an estimated one million.
Then I said, So, Would it not be cheaper to just spend the 1 million every year and just write it off as an unavoidable operating expense?
His answer. …… Well who would do a training program for such a thing?
I said. I don’t know. But the people charging you six million a year to save you one million are probably not the ones to ask!

Sounds like those goobers are insured by AIG .... AIG prolly talked them into that economically sound plan!!! That six million $ is likely paying for top exec. bonuses and lush retreats.