Internet over mains power lines!!!

[pike]

These guys are boasting about internet access over the power lines. Is this just a fad or for real ???

link:
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/03/02/biz_biz1acin.html

I think it won't work because they deliver power in the form of AC, it is possible in DC, but definetly not AC. What do you guys think ??

 

[diode]

Yeah, sure it's possible, and it's long time there are talks about it. I don't see the problem with AC or DC.

If you modulate somehow a carrier with a frequency different then 50Hz and mix it with the 50Hz on the mains you can get your modulated signal on the other side clean from the 50Hz just by filtering.

They also have to extract and regenarate the signal at every transformer along the line as those are betteer to transfer 50Hz then much different frequencies.

The project, between other things, raised many concerns between radioamators as the mains would become quite effective antennas radiating this higher frequency signals all over.

I am not sure in what frequency range they are planning to work though, but must be quite high if they want to carry traffic at a decent speed.

 

[stevez]

In this country it's called BPL - Broadband over Power Line. It's being tested in some areas and I heard a rumor that my city, Rochester, NY, is to be a test area. Lots of info on ARRL website (American Radio Relay League). Amateur radio operators are concerned about interference and that concern may be justified.

 

[Optikon]

In this country it's called BPL - Broadband over Power Line. It's being tested in some areas and I heard a rumor that my city, Rochester, NY, is to be a test area. Lots of info on ARRL website (American Radio Relay League). Amateur radio operators are concerned about interference and that concern may be justified.

How "broad" would that broadband be? DSL over phone lines is considered broadband and so I wonder how high of speed one can get over monster powerline cables.

 

[Styx]

ASDL over the phone lines is quite shite and it uses good quality copper.

Power lines usually use aluminum so prolly not that broadband but still alot better than dialup esp in areas that due to finacial reasons the local exchange in rural areas wont get changed to ASDL

 

[spuffock]

HF aerials can be quite expensive-can anyone think of any good reason why I should not build a mains matching unit for my 400 watt SSB transmitter and use the mains wiring as an aerial?

 

[hantto]

One of my friends gets his internet through the mains. Works fine.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

HF aerials can be quite expensive-can anyone think of any good reason why I should not build a mains matching unit for my 400 watt SSB transmitter and use the mains wiring as an aerial?

I can think of lot's of reasons, and I'm sure you can as well :lol:

 

[spuffock]

In reply to Nigel Goodwin, of course I know a good reason- the efficiency is abysmal. The question is, why shouldnt I add a load of errors to the system? If I get a few of my mates to do the same, we could probably reduce the effective data rate to less than a dial up connection.
If I habitually lit a bonfire of old tyres upwind of your house, would you still greet me with a smile?

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

In reply to Nigel Goodwin, of course I know a good reason- the efficiency is abysmal. The question is, why shouldnt I add a load of errors to the system? If I get a few of my mates to do the same, we could probably reduce the effective data rate to less than a dial up connection.

If that's the question, the answer is obvious - it would result in you losing your licences - deliberately causing interference is a serious offence.

Obviously you are somewhat concerned over the possibility of Internet over power lines, as perhaps you should be? - but just as you have a responsibility not to cause interference, so have they. Is there any proof yet of interference from the tests, or is it all theoretical so far?.

BTW, I hold a licence as well, G8MMV.

If I habitually lit a bonfire of old tyres upwind of your house, would you still greet me with a smile?

You wouldn't greet me with one when I came to visit :lol:

Although as I live in a smokeless zone, I could simply call the police and report you!.

 

[spuffock]

Nigel Goodwin- I hope you see that the hypothetical bonfire is an arguing point, and that actually lighting one is a failure mode! However, the concern is that the HF spectrum will become virtually useless because it saves some organization MONEY, and unless by some means I can accumulate enough MONEY to buy the appropriate officials, there is nothing I can do about it. I admit to not having become a victim of the noise yet, since there are no tests in this area, but I have read reports, and I fail to see how the proposed signals can fail to produce severe interference.
By all means visit- I know a couple of good pubs!
You are on good terms with the police? I take it you don't hold a driving licence?

 

[stevez]

BPL, as I understand it, uses 2 to 80 mHz.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

You are on good terms with the police? I take it you don't hold a driving licence?

The police are like the curates egg 'good in parts', I've known some good ones and some bad ones - generally most are reasonably good. As for a driving licence, I've held one since 1971, if you don't break the driving laws there's no problem - but speed cameras are a total pain!.

I've become more pro police recently, as my daughter's attending a free music 'youth club' called 'Music Melting Pot', run by the police. They all seem really nice people (possibly not typical police!) and my daughters enjoying learning to play drums for free.

Originally the scheme was for young offenders (which really pisses me off!, rewarding criminals for their bad behaviour!), but in December they opened it to anyone.

 

[spuffock]

Nigel,we've wandered off the subject! Here I am trying to get a good argument going about a subject that's sure to cause a lot of faces like jugs if it really gets off the ground, and we're talking about police and motorists!
Let's start again. How secure do you suppose this means of distribution of internet might be? I can't see an easy way of extracting credit card information from it, but suppose I had sufficient MONEY and had bought the same immunity from prosecution as the ISPs, couldn't I just bust in on everybody with a load of advertising for, say, three quarters of the time, to start with? A bigger signal would reduce the amount of interference from ISPs , and I could always get feedback in order to repeat anything that was lost until it DID get through.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Let's start again. How secure do you suppose this means of distribution of internet might be? I can't see an easy way of extracting credit card information from it, but suppose I had sufficient MONEY and had bought the same immunity from prosecution as the ISPs, couldn't I just bust in on everybody with a load of advertising for, say, three quarters of the time, to start with? A bigger signal would reduce the amount of interference from ISPs , and I could always get feedback in order to repeat anything that was lost until it DID get through.

Firstly i wasn't aware that ISP's were immune from prosecution (the famous Demon case for example), and you probably couldn't just 'buy' immunity if they were.

Secondly, spam is now a criminal offence in the UK, and you would obviously have to be in the UK to casue the interference.

Thirdly, it wouldn't be just spamming, it would be deliberate disruption to an existing service, and presumably you would be liable as a hacker as well. Not to mention you could be sued for the losses of everyone involved, and with the amount of traffic on the net that could be a seriously considerable sum.

Back to the credit card security thing, I don't see as it would be any less secure than now - as it is your details travel through many different peoples machines and networks to get where they are going. Hopefully using secure systems with encryption keeps it reasonably save.

I recently saw a supermarket, while it was been renovated, throw out three bin bags full of used credit card slips! - they were just left in bags outside for the bin men!.

 

[spuffock]

I don't think anyone wants to argue about this one. Nigel, maybe the loss of the HF bands won't worry you much, but the requirement for bandwidth increases by the day, and commercial interests always look to the amateur bands. Soon it will all be gone.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

You seem to be assuming it's a deliberate attack on the amateur bands, from what's been said it's the entire spectrum from 2-80MHz, which covers a lot more than the amateur bands.

But is it actually causing problems?, or is it all theoretical so far?.

If it causes interference to a legal licenced user of a band (amateur or not) they are commiting an offence - just as you would be doing, and, presumably, would be subject to the same penalties?.

 

[spuffock]

It's not a deliberate attack on the amateur bands,it's I WANT AND BUGGER EVERYONE ELSE! Sorry,Nigel, but you and I are members of everyone else. It won't cause excessive interference because of the definition of excessive. The goalposts will be moved.